I've been following the threads on the Lost Ski Areas including all of the old threads and just joined this forum. Tory Mt. seems quite intriguing and has some possibilities of resurrection and certainly would be less work than starting from scratch, One of the things missing from the SE is a truly World Class ski resort that would meet all of the requirements for all World Class events such as downhill, Tory might come close. This is based on the published standards. It should also complement, cooperate, support and minimally compete with other slopes.
One things to consider is that the most successful ski resorts in our area seem to be year around resorts. Some of them didn't start out that way,but have transitioned in that direction. There are multiple aspects, all of which require many people with many talents. It requires a lot of money and people willing to share their experience, work hard and intelligently as a team. A good plan with a great team can attract investors.
I'd like to hear personally from people that would like to to get involved in investigating this further, You can contact me at my email address at jkaplenk@aol.com. You can also just send me comments or post here.
As a disclaimer I am a Realtor and am not making any kind of offer to sell anything. But I could help or get help in any real estate issues or purchases. I've been a ski instructor at several resorts and closely observed operations there and have worked with and held national level positions with several sports organizations.
Joe Kaplenk
Joe,
Welcome to DCSki! Always great to have folks posting that dream and think outside the box. We Mid-Atlantic sliders almost got a resort similar to what you envision at Mt. Porte Cranyon (spelling?) across RT 33 from Canaan Valley, not too far from Tory Mt. Unfortunately a contrarian land owner refused to sell a small piece of real estate essential to the project. I am sure Mr Fish here on DCSki can tell you all about it; he beat this drum the hardest! There was money, plans, etc but it was not to be!
The closest Mid-A area similar to what you describe is Snowshoe with length and vertical on the Western Territory to support your "downhill". Alas, it is not close to any metro areas, essential to day traffic needed to support the type of operation you seem to describe.
I like your positive style, and again, Welcome to DCSki!
The Colonel
PS: What exactly do you mean by "downhill" in your post? I do not think the planners of Tory Mt. envisioned the kind of "Downhill" needed to attract world class downhill racing.
Just for fun over lunch I thought I might actually lookup downhill requirements. I don't know much about the world of FIS regulations, but according to this document...
http://www.fis-ski.com/mm/Document/documentlibrary/AlpineSkiing/02/03/07/icr_16.07.13.clean_Neutral.pdf
... it looks like for olympic or world cup qualifiying men's courses it looks like you need between 800 and 1100 meters of vertical drop, which is 2624+ feet. For lesser events as little as 450 meters (1476 feet). The only southeast mountains i know with 2600 vertical are in north carolina and you sure could not keep snow on them. However 1476 is pretty resonable in a lot of places.
I am not saying anything about Tory, other than world class is sort of funny....
Ok, I guess I had some wrong ideas about no ski areas with sufficient vertical in the SE. Not sure how I missed it and just was talking with others ;-[ Of course there are none in a decent driving distance of DC, except perhaps Snowshoe if you consider that drive as decent. Anyway, Tory won't meet the requirements either as it stands, but might potentially as it is 400 ft off in the current boundaries. It just means that there might be some work to get there or land expansion. It could meet all the requirements except downhill, but as I read the regulations they appear to have made some exceptions for a lesser drop for downhill. Getting some World Class events here might help the area's reputation and open more skiing.
It's a shame that one landowner held up a decent project elsewhere
Joe Kaplenk
Jimmy, I do not believe any NC Ski areas have the sort of vertical you mention. Snowshoe advertises Cupp at 1500' vertical.
Looking forward to some slope time with you this winter.
Just in case anyone is curious, this is tory mountain on the google maps. https://www.google.com/maps/place/38%C2%B052'50.1%22N+79%C2%B031'01.6%22W/@38.8746401,-79.5142685,2407m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x0
And here is a better arial view from Bing Maps. http://binged.it/1NYp7g7 It has a newer image, and appears to be really over grown.
And before anyone brings it up, here is another abandoned project.... The Laurel Club. http://binged.it/1NYpGqf It still appears to be cleared!
The Colonel wrote:
Jimmy, I do not believe any NC Ski areas have the sort of vertical you mention. Snowshoe advertises Cupp at 1500' vertical.
Looking forward to some slope time with you this winter.
I said mountains, not ski areas. In fact I said you could not keep snow on it.
Look at the topology for Celo mountain, or Roan mountain, for instance. You need a big mountain to get 2600+ vertical. Actually not that many appropriate candidates in teh sount.
We all know WV mnt are far superior then PA and VA mnt (interms of snowfall, vert and somewhat distance) however i do know of a mountain in pa thats only 2 hours from the district and it has around 1,600 vert. That being said I'm not going to claim it gets nearly as much snow as westbygodva but seeing how skiing is starting to evolve to require less natural snow i dont see it as a major issue. It does unfortunately sit in state land. Its in franklin co pa (it's the mnt in my profile pic) i also dont see Tory as baing much of a destination As it stands yes it can be made larger but if you want a downhill race corse ur best be in the immediate area is the mnt just north of Tory that desends into harman.
One thing to think about also is that even though an area might advertise a certain vertical drop it may be from the highest point to the lowest point of the area, not on a skiable single run. With several mountains at a resort the biggest single drop in a run may be a lot less. There may be some intermediate valleys going from the highest pt. Also getting a desired vertical drop may mean going quite a long distance and not quite a feasible run.
I checked further and snowshoe only shows a 1480 ft drop. So my info was correct.
Antoine wrote:
We all know WV mnt are far superior then PA and VA mnt (interms of snowfall, vert and somewhat distance) however i do know of a mountain in pa thats only 2 hours from the district and it has around 1,600 vert. That being said I'm not going to claim it gets nearly as much snow as westbygodva but seeing how skiing is starting to evolve to require less natural snow i dont see it as a major issue. It does unfortunately sit in state land. Its in franklin co pa (it's the mnt in my profile pic) i also dont see Tory as baing much of a destination As it stands yes it can be made larger but if you want a downhill race corse ur best be in the immediate area is the mnt just north of Tory that desends into harman.
Good info. I'm going to check it.
jkaplenk wrote:
Antoine wrote:
We all know WV mnt are far superior then PA and VA mnt (interms of snowfall, vert and somewhat distance) however i do know of a mountain in pa thats only 2 hours from the district and it has around 1,600 vert. That being said I'm not going to claim it gets nearly as much snow as westbygodva but seeing how skiing is starting to evolve to require less natural snow i dont see it as a major issue. It does unfortunately sit in state land. Its in franklin co pa (it's the mnt in my profile pic) i also dont see Tory as baing much of a destination As it stands yes it can be made larger but if you want a downhill race corse ur best be in the immediate area is the mnt just north of Tory that desends into harman.
Good info. I'm going to check it.
I took a look at it and it would work if 2400' could be allowed. It is a southerly exposure, so that might be an issue. It could be very straight or curvy as the slope is relatively consistent with no big peaks or valleys showing up on the map. It looks like it has been cut for lumber, so that might be pretty boring. This is a start.
The Colonel wrote:
Jimmy, I do not believe any NC Ski areas have the sort of vertical you mention. Snowshoe advertises Cupp at 1500' vertical.
Looking forward to some slope time with you this winter.
They were probably looking at elevation, not ski boundary vertical feet. We've got 5,400' of elevation lift served a couple places here. But, you'd need to knock down some fences and add all the helluvalotta snowmaking and uphill infrastructure to get more than 1,100' of actual skiing vertical there.
jkaplenk wrote:
jkaplenk wrote:
Antoine wrote:
We all know WV mnt are far superior then PA and VA mnt (interms of snowfall, vert and somewhat distance) however i do know of a mountain in pa thats only 2 hours from the district and it has around 1,600 vert. That being said I'm not going to claim it gets nearly as much snow as westbygodva but seeing how skiing is starting to evolve to require less natural snow i dont see it as a major issue. It does unfortunately sit in state land. Its in franklin co pa (it's the mnt in my profile pic) i also dont see Tory as baing much of a destination As it stands yes it can be made larger but if you want a downhill race corse ur best be in the immediate area is the mnt just north of Tory that desends into harman.
Good info. I'm going to check it.
I took a look at it and it would work if 2400' could be allowed. It is a southerly exposure, so that might be an issue. It could be very straight or curvy as the slope is relatively consistent with no big peaks or valleys showing up on the map. It looks like it has been cut for lumber, so that might be pretty boring. This is a start.
I hope there wasn't any confusion, I was replying to the part of the discussion about a peak north of Tory. It's funny that I looked at the list of peaks on WV on wikipedia and several of the peaks don't show up on their list even though their height would qualify them.
Joe,
i dont know what you are talking about the mnt is called brierpatch and has a 2k vert. I think you may be referring to mount Porte crayon. The greatest mnt in wv. It has a lack of water got snowmaking anywere around it and had a critically endangered lizard there. Brierpatch dose face north however. The pa mnt is big mnt on tuscarora mnt. Whitetail is also located in the same hill just much lower and further south.
Antoine wrote:
Joe,
i dont know what you are talking about the mnt is called brierpatch and has a 2k vert. I think you may be referring to mount Porte crayon. The greatest mnt in wv. It has a lack of water got snowmaking anywere around it and had a critically endangered lizard there. Brierpatch dose face north however. The pa mnt is big mnt on tuscarora mnt. Whitetail is also located in the same hill just much lower and further south.
Ok. That looks pretty good. I was thinking the Tory Mt. side of Brierpatch.
I found some more info. Apparently Tory was listed for sale recently. It's no longer forsale. I have no clue if it sold or not. But the website links to PDFs with property maps, etc. http://www.landandfarm.com/property/Tory_Mountain-1774242/
Anyone know if it sold? Or who owns it now?
AndyGene wrote:
Anyone know if it sold? Or who owns it now?
I wish it was me. Isn't that everyone here's common dream, to own thier own ski hill complete with uphill transport and some snow making capacity? I'd keep the retaining ponds stocked with trout hahahaha...
Still for sale? Updated about a week ago.
David wrote:
Still for sale? Updated about a week ago.
It is still for sale as of Friday. It could also be good hunting or a year-around resort. I found that there is even a 9,000 sq ft unfinished building on the property that was going to be the temporary building for the first year and equipment maintenance later, but is in bad repair and probably might not even have salvage value. It would probably need a lot work to finish. There are no utilities to the property based on doing some information digging. So either they were removed or didn't get that far.
So were the pictures in that listing taken with a Polaroid? Or is that some kind of Instagram filter? They look like they are scanned from pictures that are about 40 years old, with creases and everything.
Great thread ---
I first came upon that slope not because I knew of plans to develop it as Tory Mountain but just thru aimless scrolling on Google earth, interestly it is referred to as Job Knob there and I am only now figuring out that is the one and the same lost/failed ski mountain that I'd heard discussion of before. Probably everyone is familiar with this link right here on DCski but it's worth a reread in this context: http://www.dcski.com/lostareas/viewlostprofile.php?id=87
the satelite image jumps out immediately at you and I've often thought of it as a place to go unofficially after a heavy storm. Problems with that might include: access to it, looks difficult; private property issues; and as has been mentioned; it looks very overgrown which means it would be thick with new growth which I find difficult ... the trees between the cut trails might be clearer than the trails themselves at this point in time.
BTW AndyGene thanks for the link to the Bing map, I'd never bothered to look at them before and the imagery is different and generally seems better than Google's
edit: how does one hyperlink in a post?
Google is giving me some good stuff today. Here is an article about Tory Mountain in Skiing Magazine from 1983. It looks fancy. Click on the page it brings up then you should be able to see the article. I'm not good at google books. Sorry for the shoddy link. https://books.google.com/books?id=MKLm4zG3FgwC&pg=PA16&dq=tory+mountain+ski+magazine&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAGoVChMIqqKi8cjqxwIVDhuSCh0F_gHe#v=onepage&q=tory&f=false
And here is an add for the Laurel Creek Club. Only $15,000 to join for a life time of skiing, and the promise of no lift lines!
You have to scroll down to see the add. It does look like they had some impressive plans. ANyone know the story on it?
@AndyGene,
Great links! Thanks.
@kemperski,
Click on the hyperlink icon at the top of the text box, and paste in the link:
http://www.dcski.com/lostareas/viewlostprofile.php?id=87
kemperski wrote:
the satelite image jumps out immediately at you and I've often thought of it as a place to go unofficially after a heavy storm. Problems with that might include:
I'm going to buy the place and be standing out there out front of my new lodge doing this when yout try that..
http://www.epicski.com/content/type/61/id/96621/width/350/height/700/flags/LL
Wow, look at that ad for Laruel Creek. I had no idea that was such a swindle. 50 runs 13 lifts 700 acres - best skiing in the east ? 5 lifts and 20 runs by Dec 1988 ? hahahahahaha. Pretty drawing though.
I actually drove down the road to the site a couple of years ago. Just past the Marlinton Motor Inn, turn left, and keep going until you hear banjos. Then keep going. The road is so deep along a creek bed you have no hope of seeing where the site might have been. From the landmarks I think I know where it is, but no hope of seeing it.
pagamony wrote:
Wow, look at that ad for Laruel Creek. I had no idea that was such a swindle. 50 runs 13 lifts 700 acres - best skiing in the east ? 5 lifts and 20 runs by Dec 1988 ? hahahahahaha.
Sounds like something Bernie Madoff was involved in. It appears the only accurate promise was "no lift lines."
Blue Don 1982 wrote:
pagamony wrote:
Wow, look at that ad for Laruel Creek. I had no idea that was such a swindle. 50 runs 13 lifts 700 acres - best skiing in the east ? 5 lifts and 20 runs by Dec 1988 ? hahahahahaha.
Sounds like something Bernie Madoff was involved in. It appears the only accurate promise was "no lift lines."
That should be the new tagline for Whitegrass.
Having trouble with posting images, but I looked at Randolph Co GIS stuff and some good resolution summertime satellite imagery--
this place looks amazing. Surely someone has done some wintertime beta?
ok I figured out pictures..despite the angry octagenarian and his pointy stick I must investigate this more closely
I was reading another forum and someone was talking about telemarking it back in the 90s. I also read someone talking about heliskiing it after a blizzard with some coal tycoon. If they can do it. you can too kemperski!
It looks pretty good. It looks like they got some trees growing in the trails which i find is really cool however id be worried about how tall the gras is/small trees this really has ruind my experianced in plenty of my fav spots and blue knob. I dont know maybe we can call out the mad river glen lawn mowing crew?!
ok, is one of these posters really AndyFishNSki or Homebiscuit or whatever he calls himself now ? all i can say is good luck god bless and post pics of your adventures and tell me when the new ski areas open ! darn that nature filling in those runs !
otherwise, if you search you will find several good wva backcountry ski videos on mt porte crayon, pharis knob, the dolly sods / wiess knobs areas, and others. the ones from whitegrass showing high speed drop knee skinny skiing are fabulous. While i am not a candidate to appear in any of them i really enjoy them. I will say that if you are looking for west by god backcountry, then go to whitegrass, ask around, and go for it. the snow is out there. (sometimes)
Pagamony, I assure you that I am AndyGene of Cincinnati (Formerly Columbus) and not the same Andy with the statue on top of MPC. I really love winter sports, and would absolutely be thrilled if some new slopes opened in WV. That's why i continue to discuss it.
AndyGene, too bad you have big shoes to fill ! Cincinnatti to Davis is a haul, about the same as my drive from Durham. My dad's family is from Coshocton so I'm half a buckeye. Hope to see you up there in the mountains sometime.
I was looking at a number of topographical maps in WV and VA and there are several mountains that could provide a 2400+ drop in a single run. They appear to be on public land, which is not necessarily a deal-breaker and several are closer to DC than Snowshoe. The terrain may be difficult which means some work to check. There may be a good reason they never were developed but maybe not. The topographical map of Wintergreen shows a 2400' potential drop. I talked with someone that works there and knows the geography and they said that the lower terrain has a lot of crevices. There are even elevation signs on the road showing a difference of 2400' in elevation. It's a shame they didn't run the slopes to the top of the mountain instead of making it resort property.
Like many others they struggle to keep snow on the upper elevation they have--- I was in oregon where my son has moved and the lower lifts on Mt Hood and Bachelor were not open in mid winter , a thousand plus feet of vertival had fallen beneath the snow line
That's relevant only in that any Va or Wv resort would constantly (not the anomaly but the norm) have to blanket 2400" with manmade, really they would have to carpet it ala Liberty
Yes, snow making would be pretty essential. I've taught at Liberty and they were pretty constant with the snowmaking. Also ideally a place would be west of the Continental Divide as the snow tends to get dropped there before it passes the highest peaks. Here is a map showing that most of WV is in a good location for natural snow: http://www.virginiaplaces.org/settleland/graphics/eastercontinentaldivide.gif. But even Snowshoe advertises a 100% snowmaking coverage at http://www.snowshoemtn.com/the-mountain/mountain-stats.aspx. But any place also needs to be in a decent driving time from the major metropolitan areas like DC. So it narrows down the options somewhat.
But any place also needs to be in a decent driving time from the major metropolitan areas like DC. So it narrows down the options somewhat.
I have always said that the best mountain within driving distance to dc is tuscarora mountain (big mountain) its in pa so lower elevation tems are not as much of an issue. You could put 1,600 long trail down that thing. But to be honest. Wv is superior its just always going to be a "normaly destination" area. Big mountain is 1 hour 45 mins from dc so thats one of the largest assets it has. It is on state Forrest land (in pa its a fluke there have been loging ops there for years) it could be possible to convince the state to cut trails instead of the mountain tops.
pagamony wrote:
AndyGene, too bad you have big shoes to fill ! Cincinnatti to Davis is a haul, about the same as my drive from Durham. My dad's family is from Coshocton so I'm half a buckeye. Hope to see you up there in the mountains sometime.
At around 6 hours it makes it very difficult to do with much regularity. I like Davis a lot as a town, but prefer the slopes of Snowshoe much more. So when I'm in WV it is usually the south side. One day I have dreams of owning a home in Davis. Working in the tech sector it is hard to get far from major cities and still be employable. Plus my wife isn't big into skiing (she tore her ACL a few years back at 7 springs, and doesn't enjoy it any more. I understand her issues.). All of those issues combined make me live vicariosuly through this website, and all of it's member's adventures.
Do you know Skifishbum?, I'm not being snarky, I don't know you but I'm curious
syntax is similar
fishnski wrote:
Nope...been known as Bumabeerski......I just came out of retirement to give a shoutout to all my ole school Dc Homeski's.....going back into hybernation now cuzzzzz...winter has begun and will be coming to a ski area near you soon! Long live the Wv Alpps.....and of course the sweet smell of fish blood and salt air!
yay we ferretted him out. Fishnski keep posting we need your fabulous wit, news, and opinines. And now I have to hike up there and find that damn statue next to your e cabin.
I've heard several reasons why Tory Mt. didn't work out. One of them was money, but I"ve also heard:
- Not enough water - Looking in detail at the maps it appears like there is plenty of water in multiple streams around the property. Was this really an issue?
- Getting utilities to it. It would seem like with the wind generation facillities on mountains nearby this would not now be an issue.
- Getting access - there is a road leading to it that is hardened and graded and comes off or is quite near a major road. The only issue I have seen is that the access road sometimes floods.
Anyone know if these might be current issues or if there are others?
Joe
Joe - I think are a few other things (IMO):
LODGING - There is no "easy" way to get there so people are not going to day trip it so they'll need a place to stay. There are not enough skiers within a 2 hour drive to support a ski place. They'd have to invest in some form of a hotel / condo / inn.
COMPETITION 1 - The larger populations that would provide visitors to Tory are going to have to drive past many of the established resorts to get there.
COMPETITION 2 - Isn't there rumor that the guy who owns the Greenbriar is kicking the tires on opening some slopes? That guy has deep pockets.
REAL ESTATE - Vacation and second home sales are very weak right now. It's hard to get a loan on a second home these days. They'd have a hard time developing and selling homes near the slopes.
ENVIRONMENTAL - Would they face that same protected salamander species as Snowshoe does? Waste water is also a sensitive issue in Pocahontas County. I would think these would be challenging items.
Wow - after I read this I called myself a Debbie Downer.
COMPETITION 2 - Isn't there rumor that the guy who owns the Greenbriar is kicking the tires on opening some slopes? That guy has deep pockets.
Blue Don,
It is my understanding that Greenbriar owner Jim Justice is developing a new championship golf course as a part of a very upscale Greenbrier housing development. In addition this project will include a private small ski area with slopes for Greenbriar residents, hotel guests and members. Supposedly avail is involved with the ski slopes. I read the golf course is to open next year.
The Colonel
Blue Don 1982 wrote:
Joe - I think are a few other things (IMO):
LODGING - There is no "easy" way to get there so people are not going to day trip it so they'll need a place to stay. There are not enough skiers within a 2 hour drive to support a ski place. They'd have to invest in some form of a hotel / condo / inn.
COMPETITION 1 - The larger populations that would provide visitors to Tory are going to have to drive past many of the established resorts to get there.
COMPETITION 2 - Isn't there rumor that the guy who owns the Greenbriar is kicking the tires on opening some slopes? That guy has deep pockets.
REAL ESTATE - Vacation and second home sales are very weak right now. It's hard to get a loan on a second home these days. They'd have a hard time developing and selling homes near the slopes.
ENVIRONMENTAL - Would they face that same protected salamander species as Snowshoe does? Waste water is also a sensitive issue in Pocahontas County. I would think these would be challenging items.
Wow - after I read this I called myself a Debbie Downer.
These are great things to think about and need to be addressed. Any new slope in WV would probably have to address these questions and more. Keep 'em coming. Tory Mt. is not necessarily the best spot, IMHO. I think there are better potential areas that are state or federally owned but then could not be as much of a year-round investment venue. I did come across the Salamander issue looking at some of the other mountains.
Joe
The Colonel wrote:
COMPETITION 2 - Isn't there rumor that the guy who owns the Greenbriar is kicking the tires on opening some slopes? That guy has deep pockets.
Blue Don,
It is my understanding that Greenbriar owner Jim Justice is developing a new championship golf course as a part of a very upscale Greenbrier housing development. In addition this project will include a private small ski area with slopes for Greenbriar residents, hotel guests and members. Supposedly avail is involved with the ski slopes. I read the golf course is to open next year.
The Colonel
Gee then we could use the bunker for cheap overnight skier accomodations,kind of like a hostel and be fully protected in case of nuclear attack LOL http://www.greenbrier.com/Activities/The-Bunker
okay.. so who has actually skiied it. ??
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