Been following the boarding questions on the other thread and figured it was appropriate to pull out the topic to a new thread.
Background: I learned to ski when I was in middle school usually getting out only once or twice a year. In the last 3 years I have been fourtunate enough to get out 20-30 times in a season and have much improved my skills. Last year I decided to pick up snowboarding. (after a failed attempt in college... which resulted on breaking my wrist on the bunny slope) I'd like to point out a few things from the conversation on the other thread, some of which I suspect is somewhat subjective, other parts not so subjective. I would think I am equally good at either now... just more confident on skis when there is ice.
Stopping: On good conditions I would argue I can stop equally well on skis vs snowboard. Keep in mind skis are generally longer (and will allow you to gain more speed) but snow boards are wider. If it is not ice you can quickly get more surface area into the snow from a snowboard than the width of your skis. Keep in mind an intermediate skier will generally go faster than an intermediate snowboarder because physics allows the equipment to go faster. On ICE I will almost always prefer the skis... the second edge makes stopping much easier. The other thing to keep in mind is beginning skiers start by snowplowing... which we have all seen how well that works when stopping on steeps. Snowboarding there is only one real way to stop, a beginning snowboarder could make their way down very steep terrain somewhat in a control while holding a single edge (NOT SAYING THEY SHOULD) while a beginning skier trying to snowplow will very quickly be in trouble.
Turning: Again snowboards are shorter. Once you learn to carve and get the idea of it turning is no more difficult on a snowboard. Again a skier snowplowing is going to have more difficulty turning than a boarder that has figured out how to carve.
Other Observations: On ice I think skis will always have more control, on slush and powder it is a wash IMO. The BLIND SPOT for snowboards is real. I am very aware of it on both skis (of others) and the snowboard (others and myself) I wish instructors would mention this to boarders and skiers, as it is pretty obvious if you know of it. I suspect doing both skis and board has made me realize it more than most boarders, and certaintly more than most boarders. If you are in a collison... you can get hurt no matter who is at fault, so might as well pay attention to your surroundings.
I'm starting to think that at least at the SnowTime resorts they keep a set of VERY detuned boards for people that are there for the first time (or hopefully only on the learn to board tickets) these boards increase stopping time, but also make it much harder to catch an edge. I have been with 2 friends learning, and the boards they have rented for the Learn To Board have had almost no metal left... if this is intentional I wish they would warn them of it, but it probably isnt a bad idea for a day one. (or maybe it is just a lack of midseason tuning and a bit of luck, but I have also seen rental equipment there with decent edges)
Seeing that boarders and skiers share the same slopes I think it is important to understand the strengths and limitations of other people you are on the mountain with. If you have the chance to pick up a board for 2-3 days and learn I would recomend it, even if you never do it again it will probably make you a better skier.
On a sidenote boarding this weekend in a T-Shirt at Whitetail was a blast... skiing the slush is usually quite tiring, although I was tired when I left, I had an absolutely amazing time. (I'm not a fan of skiing very choppy slush, but thats an opinion. Boarding on it gave me a nice chance to practice short carves in the choppy, soft, mogul like snow)
I have a similar history to you, except my snowboarding trial stuck in college until I had kids start to ski about 8 years ago, at which time I switched back to skiing. It wasn't until I snowboarded that I really felt what carving was, and I agree it did make me a better skier. It's easy to skid when skiing and not really carve those turns, but it's not hard to carve on a snowboard once you commit to going fast enough and it really gives you a good feeling of what it is to carve a turn.
My main contention is that snowboarders initiate more collisions and have more accidents per capita due their blind spots and due to the fact that skier performance, hard boots, step in bindings, and TWO edges all act together to give skiers huge advantages when it cimes to turning and stopping. Look at every competitive discipline that skiers and boarders share a course togther in. Even with a carving board, hard boots, and step in bindings the best snowboarders aren't competitive against the best skiers in a GS course. Skiers gain much greater amplitude in half pipes. Having two edges and being able to work them independently and optimally gives skiers the edge in control... especially when it cones to hard stops and stopping distance.
apples and oranges homeslice
crgildart wrote:
My main contention is that snowboarders initiate more collisions and have more accidents per capita due their blind spots and due to the fact that skier performance, hard boots, step in bindings, and TWO edges all act together to give skiers huge advantages when it cimes to turning and stopping. Look at every competitive discipline that skiers and boarders share a course togther in. Even with a carving board, hard boots, and step in bindings the best snowboarders aren't competitive against the best skiers in a GS course. Skiers gain much greater amplitude in half pipes. Having two edges and being able to work them independently and optimally gives skiers the edge in control... especially when it cones to hard stops and stopping distance.
The increased collision rate and near brushes with snowboarders is something I experienced directly as mentioned elsewhere, The blind spot for snowboarders is definitely one cause of the problem. It also seems to me that beginning snowboarders are younger, more adventurous, more willing to go out on their own on blues and blacks and less likely to take lessons than a beginning skier. As an instructor we are taught also that it is easier to teach a beginner to ski than to snowboard.
Collisions are typically initiated by a person out of control hitting someone who is focusing on the left, right and downhill, not uphill. Until we have rear-view mirrors, goggles or collision-avoidance systems it is going to be difficult to see the person behind us if we are just heading downhill.
In the early days of snowboarding it was necessary for the snowboarder to get certified by the Ski Patrol and get a sticker that they were qualified to board it. Of course the equipment has changed and become much safer and controllable. It's a shame we couldn't do it for both skiers and snowboarders, of course that's kind of ridiculous now.
Joe Kaplenk
I feel like I've been a few places where if you take a beginner lesson they give you a different lift ticket that keeps you on green trails. Specifically I think I saw this at Winterplace (and maybe Steamboat). The Winterplace incident would have been close to 20 years ago. Regular people got a blue pass, and newbs got a red pass.
On thing you guys forget about snowboarding is that it makes it lot easier to look up slope, which can let you know when people are coming!
My final thought on this rests on the Greens of Snowshoe. If you can ski the narrow greens on the basin side (ones not in the powder monkey system) and not pass people then you are a better man than I. Narrow trails are the only place I will call out where I am coming from.
I'm going to leave the lifestyle and demographic atributes out of the conversation and just focus on gear and technique in my analysis of why it is more difficult for snowboarders to avoid collisions than it is for skiers in many instances. I've been a skateboarder since the mid 1970s. I still skate occasionally and own a pre fab Freshparks Quarter Pipe that I still drag out to the street a couple times a year. I surfed summers when I lived on Long Island during my college days. I tried snowboadring a few times when it first started to really take off but just never liked the idea of having my feet tied down, no poles, having to step out to get around flats, etc,.. Skis will always be my preference when it comes to snow, but I do also own a snow skate.. cant ride it woth anything though. I agree that it is shocking that resorts haven't done more to have different levels of access for people of differnt abilities. Even at the local communig pool you have to prove you can swim before the let you go off the diving board or swim past the deep end ropes.
Got a new set of data points for this analysis that blows away my prior assumptions.. that two 165 cm edges would always beat one 165 cm edge for turning and stopping all other things equal. I have been proven wrong!
Justin Reiter born 1981 Male
AJ Kitt Born 1968 Male
Jackie Wiles born 1992 Female
And a 0.01 second difference on a dual setup course between Justin and Jackie?? That is essentially a tie.
Apples and oranges comparison.
If they were all at their prime say 25 years old it may be a fair comparison.
I have seen AJ Kitt ski a downhill at Squaw over 15 years ago and all I can say is that guy is fast.
crgildart wrote:
Got a new set of data points for this analysis that blows away my prior assumptions.. that two 165 cm edges would always beat one 165 cm edge for turning and stopping all other things equal. I have been proven wrong!
Snowboarder beats US Ski Team members in slalom race
