So I have been reading a lot of "blame Vail" for pretty much everything wrong with the local ski areas and the industry at large. But I am curious as to what really changed?
Sure I understand the vast number of epic pass holders that suddenly had more access to resorts than before. Also, I understand the desire to get the most out of the investment in the Pass thus more likely to come out. But other than volume (which resorts should have been ready for and welcomed) what changed?
In most corporate takeovers it is the back-office staff that is at risk as that is where the redundancy lies and economies of scale have their advantages. But it is not like Vail fired all the front-line workers and bought in robots? Or did they? Was it a total overhaul so folks who worked there for years were suddenly out on the street? Or was it like a lot of government contracting jobs where the workers just change polo shirt colors and get back to work?
Overall is this just more of the WAL-Vailing of America? Closing down the mom and pops as the big corporations take over? I am not complaining just curious.
oldensign wrote:
So I have been reading a lot of "blame Vail" for pretty much everything wrong with the local ski areas and the industry at large. But I am curious as to what really changed?
Sure I understand the vast number of epic pass holders that suddenly had more access to resorts than before. Also, I understand the desire to get the most out of the investment in the Pass thus more likely to come out. But other than volume (which resorts should have been ready for and welcomed) what changed?
In most corporate takeovers it is the back-office staff that is at risk as that is where the redundancy lies and economies of scale have their advantages. But it is not like Vail fired all the front-line workers and bought in robots? Or did they? Was it a total overhaul so folks who worked there for years were suddenly out on the street? Or was it like a lot of government contracting jobs where the workers just change polo shirt colors and get back to work?
Overall is this just more of the WAL-Vailing of America? Closing down the mom and pops as the big corporations take over? I am not complaining just curious.
To understand some of the more vehement complaints about resorts taken over by VR in the last five years, need to look at each region separately. I get the sense that there are some similarities across regions that are related to the recent decisions about who to put in charge at the General Manager or regional leader level. In many cases, a new GM had no personal or professional experience in the region of the new position. Knowing how things working at Keystone or Vail or Breckenridge isn't necessarily good preparation for leading operations in New England or the midwest (Ohio, Indiana).
For the resorts that had only recently been acquired by Peak Resorts, and then moved to VR, the situation was very different than when VR aquired Heavenly or Northstar. I remember plenty of complaints around here about what Peak was changing from how Showtime used to operate Liberty, Roundtop, and Whitetail.
At some resorts still going through a transition to being fully operated under the VR approach, my sense is that there were managers who left. Presumably there were employees who left as well, even before the pandemic. For sure, the members of the owner families who were highly visible for Triple Peaks (Okemo, Sunapee, Crested Butte) and Peak Resorts are long gone. That's a big change. The transitions were still in progress when the pandemic hit the ski industry in March 2020.
Park City, UT and Stevens Pass, WA are special cases.
As context for attempting to understand what's happening at Stevens Pass, consider how much trouble Alterra has had with Crystal since taken over from John Kircher. Seattle is the growing metropolitan area served by Crystal and Stevens Pass.
Boxed In and Maxed Out, Crystal Mountain Season Pass Soars $1,000 in Two Years
I think the basic problem with Vail owned resorts was that Vail required all employees to be vaccinated. In New England this seemed to be the issue. As an older 65+ skier and wife immunocompromised I appreciate the move but many people refused to take the jab and left for other jobs. Wages for the liftees, mountain ops, and other services did not pay as well as other "non-skilled" work. The great resignation hit the ski industry hard and Vail owned resorts even harder because of the vaccine mandate.
Alterra also has an employee vax mandate.
Laurel Hill Crazie wrote:
I think the basic problem with Vail owned resorts was that Vail required all employees to be vaccinated. In New England this seemed to be the issue. As an older 65+ skier and wife immunocompromised I appreciate the move but many people refused to take the jab and left for other jobs. Wages for the liftees, mountain ops, and other services did not pay as well as other "non-skilled" work. The great resignation hit the ski industry hard and Vail owned resorts even harder because of the vaccine mandate.
imp wrote:
right now Vail is offering to pay lift operators from closing eastern places to go west, airfare and housing included.
Interesting. Round trip airfare? ;-)
With Easter being April 17, all the western destination resorts probably want to have as much open as possible in early April. Even Deer Valley is staying open until mid-April even though DV usually closes after the first weekend of April.
Patf1engineer wrote:
While Vail is far from above blame for many of their problems, a lot of the hand wringing that you see in social media is tone deaf to the shit show that has been going on in the world for the last 2 years, and the crap weather we had this season. Believe me, I am no fan of monopolies and have concerns about places losing their identities, but some of the stuff people are complaining about are a little over the top.
Yep. Exactly the opposite situation when the locals in SLC and Jackson were complaining about Ikon holders the first season. Even though local season pass usage was way up that season because it was snowing and snowing and snowing. Locals didn't want to believe the statistics that showed Ikon usage was a small percentage that season.
Have heard that some Epic holders who went to ski Snowbasin were complaining about what they didn't have in terms of amenities that exist at Park City. Needless to say, locals are relieved that Snowbasin won't be on Epic next season.
There are people who want it all . . . fast lifts, no lift lines, 100% open terrain from mid-Dec to mid-April . . . and all for low, low prices. That's what VR seemed to be promising with Epic at 20% lower prices than the previous season. The reality is that Mother Nature has the last say about what terrain will be open and for how long.
Here's an example of how Stevens Pass is in a unique situation. But VR management decisions aren't helping.
Location is a key factor because of the growth in the Seattle area. Stevens Pass is owned by VR and has been unlimited on Epic. Crystal was bought by Alterra and they have been struggling with parking and crowding issues on weekends and powder days. The situation got so bad that the GM was replaced mid-season. Crystal is no long unlimited on Ikon Base. Summit at Snoqualmie is owned by Boyne Resorts and is an Ikon Partner (5/7 days).
https://www.stormskiing.com/p/boxed-in-and-maxed-out-crystal-mountain
" . . .
Unfortunately, Vail, facing mutiny after the rough start to this season, has already guaranteed current passholders a $385 Stevens season pass for next year. Why they guaranteed that is impossible to fathom. There’s no putting that toothpaste back in the tube, but Vail should, at a minimum, restrict unlimited Stevens access to a full Epic Pass when passes go on sale later this month.
. . ."
There were independent ski resorts that required vaccination for employees, with the option for a medical/religious exemption and regular testing. Aspen Ski Co. was one of the destination resorts that made the decision in the fall. Smaller places in multiple regions did as well.
My vote would be for Mission RIdge... Better snow, less people, good terrain..
Denis wrote:
Friends claim that the best skiing in Washington is at Alpental. They are very good.
For a sense of how much effort VR is putting into making things better at Stevens Pass . . . this article is from March 8. VR fired the GM midseason and brought in an exec who had personal and professional background at Stevens.
Good Fortune? Stevens Pass’ interim leader Tom Fortune has deep local roots
lots of interesting things happened over 2 years. I have a historical journal from 1996 forward.
COVID added to the issues. Happy it only has been 1 time in my lifetime.
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VAIL does not have a monopoly less than 10% of the resorts are vail.
Plenty of alternatives but vail was smart to purchase resorts close to I 95 and population centers.
Vail knows the millennials want multi-pass.
Start of season Mid Atlantic even NY was late but within the 30-year range.
The typical start date for Lib/RT is Thanksgiving to the first week of January. The end date is the first week of March to as late as March 31. Avg for 30 years is 2nd Week December to mid-March.
Seems all HR departments did not see the drop in workers over 55. Source Fed Res 15-64-year-old population. has been flat the last few years. Staffing is tight for every labor area and pay is not the only reason.
CROWDS - many people just wanted to get outside. many have not skied in 20 years. The truth of lift times are well known and the peak times are always holiday and weekends from 11 to 2 pm.
my 17 days out lift times mostly were 1 min or less. On a weekend 5 to 10 mins.
weekday or weekend I get my usual 20 runs in 4 hours.
Looking forward- many neglected lifts will be replaced over the next year. Very large investment.
I have 17 days so far and my net cost per hour is about 7$. If not coming back from 2 surgeries I would have had 20-25 days.
Expensive not really, My summer sport runs 100$ a match. My ski race days cost $ 43.
To be cheap takes a bit of work.
Sources - Stats
https://www.nsaa.org/NSAA/Resources/Industry_Stats/NSAA/Media/Industry_Stats.aspx?
zardog aka ed
I think Krysten Lynch - Vail CEO was recently quoted as saying skier visits have been flat for a long time. The table from NSAA bears that out.. There does seem to be a small trend upward but I would bet that it lags population growth. The industry needs to start marketing Hispanics and African Americans if they want more skiers. That is where most of the population growth has occurred:
marzNC wrote:
What's been different in the past few years compared to a decade ago is that everyone has a smartphone with a camera. Facebook, Instagram, Twitter end up with pictures of long lift lines that go viral. There is little explanation and rarely is the date obvious by the time the picture is all over the Internet. Makes it easy for people who aren't all that aware to think such long lines are happening every weekend, or even every day. People who have never skied a Vail Resort can easily assume that every Epic location has similar issues, whether that's really true or not.
Very true. Growing up skiing in SE PA at Chadds Peak in the early 80s, all my high school friends and I would sit in lift lines that were sometimes 30-45 minutes long -- for the single Poma lift -- every weekend, and we never thought too much about it. Same was true for me in the 90s at Mad River Glen and its single chair, we all sat in long lines every weekend.
Vail CEO in deep sh1$t - ruh roh
It's all corporate-speak but we know where they are coming from ...
“We expect the focus will be on 1) 2022/23 Epic Pass pricing, 2) increases in hourly wage rates, and 3) MTN’s response to negative press regarding overcrowding and the guest experience,” wrote Jeff Stantial with Stifel Investment Services.
"Stifel" ?!?!?! Isn't that what Archie Bunker said to Edith - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZOTszoKbE4
My major gripe with vail resorts is still the reduced night hours at our resorts. If staffing is really an issue it would be nice to do something like snowshoe does with silver creek and do a noon-10 at one of the Pennsylvania resorts.
I think vail messed up a bit by not making snow as early as possible, but I think the commitment to snowmaking improved and was sufficient after late January.
As far as corporate wide, I thought Alterra/Powder resorts were better staffed and were more transparent all season. When I went to vail, all surface lifts were closed but there were 4 people handling vaccination checks and reservations for a cafeteria that wasn’t full. There was also no soap and paper towels in the mens room. (Noted that in the survey) I also thought their grooming was not as good as my previous trip there. The last time I went to whitetail my vaccination card was checked twice to use the bathroom and get water, but my epic pass was never scanned once in 2.5 hours.
There is also a general complaint that social media now seems to not be run by the individual resorts, there were several times this season incorrect information was posted because it was copied and pasted from another post. Hopefully this is something that they are going to give back to local management.
All and all the on mountain product from February on I thought was good, but “the experience of a lifetime” motto wasn’t lived up to.
Vail cafeteria food also needs a makeover… I was pleasantly surprised with the cafeteria options at crystal, steamboat, and winter park this year
Plus one on the food. Food breaks are one of the things I really enjoy about ski trips, and I enjoyed them a lot less when I have to pack my own. It's not a HUGE thing, and I get why maybe they just can't make any $ doing it, but... I wish there were options.
rbrtlav wrote:
...
Vail cafeteria food also needs a makeover… I was pleasantly surprised with the cafeteria options at crystal, steamboat, and winter park this year
Denis wrote:
Friends claim that the best skiing in Washington is at Alpental. They are very good.
The upper half of alpental is VERY steep. The vibe of the resort reminds me a bit of the old roundtop, maybe a bit more relaxed even. I personally have had fun at both summit and alpental.
I haven’t been to Stevens, but I personally think Crystal has better skiing, but their parking situation isn’t great.
MarkRebuck wrote:
Plus one on the food. Food breaks are one of the things I really enjoy about ski trips, and I enjoyed them a lot less when I have to pack my own. It's not a HUGE thing, and I get why maybe they just can't make any $ doing it, but... I wish there were options.
rbrtlav wrote:
...
Vail cafeteria food also needs a makeover… I was pleasantly surprised with the cafeteria options at crystal, steamboat, and winter park this year
YES! Food is the most important but funny thing if I have any kind of lunch except clam chowda (JohnL step in anytime) my body sez "no more turns!" Funny thing is when I was doing a clinic with the national champ bumper Shawn Smith we'd go to lunch and I unwisely would have a brat or whatever at The Canyons and afterward I'd have to have video analysis taking the zipper-line with a gut full of sausage?!?!?!? No wonder it didn't go well. Maybe the universe is trying to tell us all something - errr unless you hook up with Deer Valley's fire placing eats that is a WHOLE other thing, right?
Oh I remember - I had a job interview at Deer Valley for a software dev/IT position and my potential boss said " yeah we can eat for free lunch time" and I said " so hang on- what you are saying is I can hook up with the roasted salmon like every day?" Ohhhh that was almost the tipping point.
Here s a good article examining the issues that Vail-owned resorts faced this past season:
Laurel Hill Crazie wrote:
Here s a good article examining the issues that Vail-owned resorts faced this past season:
The reporting about how Vail Resorts has been doing in the northeast is good. However the history of the Epic pass, Vail Resorts, and what Rob Katz did as CEO in the past 15 years is poorly researched. In particular, the implication is that the MAX Pass inspired Epic. That's not correct since Epic started in 2008 and the first season for the MAX Pass was 2015-16. There are other statements about the evolution of VR as a business before VR bought ski areas/resorts west of Denver that are off as well. A minor point is that it should be Stevens Pass, not Steven's Pass. (Also Waze, not Wayz, assuming that's the navigation app she uses.)
#1 I agree ski midweek when schools are not out. :o)
Relax, Next Year - Vail will add 1/2 Billion $(Lift replacements, Pay increases, Housing)
Survey SAYS "weather of the skiing day and the price of a lift ticket are the most important attributes to alpine skiers, followed by ski lift queue time and the fraction of slopes open. "
The covid effect has caused years of effect and will continue. I have 25 years of data for old snowtime resorts and the crowds and timing are the same. The bicycle industry was flat and declining and Covid brought out a ton of new people.
We are not out of the woods yet. China is locked down 330 million people. Ships are on their coast waiting. The supply line will suffer.
Staff Housing - Blame AirBnB and other models.
Vail owns less than 10%. No monopoly.
Weather - varies this year was a not-so-good year. Snowtime maxed at 115 days. This season was very short.
Staffing - This should be a no-brainer- Federal reserve shows US Population of 15-64-year-olds has flattened. Foreign workers were limited. pay increased but so did every business. Peak covid happened in winters more out sick.
Vaccine - Best bet Vail surveyed the pass holders and most said Vaccine. Wait till you turn 60 and see the list of shots :o). Foreign workers had to be vac to get into the USA. Vac emp if sick are out less time.
All of us are in a situation in which we have zero control. This causes STRESS.
17 days skiing Liberty and Roundtop. 90% of my visits lift line at 1 min or less. Each visit 20 runs for 4 hours.
Cost per hr 7$. - in 1997 $139 for a night ski pass 40% off the weekend - nice deal eh?
Sources - federal reserve, Vail financial statements, my 30 years of data.
lift line stats worldwide, Lift Price compare.
I love research ......
Zardog
ZARDOG wrote:
lots of interesting things happened over 2 years. I have a historical journal from 1996 forward.
COVID added to the issues. Happy it only has been 1 time in my lifetime.
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VAIL does not have a monopoly less than 10% of the resorts are vail.
I think this is a huge oversimplification and doesn't already to the fact that this varies a lot by region.
There are a bit less than 500 resorts in the US. Vail owns roughly 10 percent. But take a look by region.
Vail owns 3 of the 6 biggest takers at Tahoe (Heavenly, Northstar, Kirkwood).
5 of the top 10 in Colorado
8 of 23 in PA, 6 of 8 on the PA/MD border region (doesn't have BK and Wisp).
There are definitely areas where Vail is stronger and a lot more dominant. Our area is one of them.
rbrtlav wrote:
My major gripe with vail resorts is still the reduced night hours at our resorts. If staffing is really an issue it would be nice to do something like snowshoe does with silver creek and do a noon-10 at one of the Pennsylvania resorts.
I think vail messed up a bit by not making snow as early as possible, but I think the commitment to snowmaking improved and was sufficient after late January.
As far as corporate wide, I thought Alterra/Powder resorts were better staffed and were more transparent all season. When I went to vail, all surface lifts were closed but there were 4 people handling vaccination checks and reservations for a cafeteria that wasn’t full. There was also no soap and paper towels in the mens room. (Noted that in the survey) I also thought their grooming was not as good as my previous trip there. The last time I went to whitetail my vaccination card was checked twice to use the bathroom and get water, but my epic pass was never scanned once in 2.5 hours.
There is also a general complaint that social media now seems to not be run by the individual resorts, there were several times this season incorrect information was posted because it was copied and pasted from another post. Hopefully this is something that they are going to give back to local management.
All and all the on mountain product from February on I thought was good, but “the experience of a lifetime” motto wasn’t lived up to.
Vail cafeteria food also needs a makeover… I was pleasantly surprised with the cafeteria options at crystal, steamboat, and winter park this year
Agreed. As a mainly twilight skier, night skiing is a concern for me as well. They could sell a night pass like ST used to ave probably do fairly well.
I agree that other companies ran things better VR this season. I did Okemo and Sunday River Christmas week. Okemo was chaotic, short-staffed, and there were lines everywhere.
Sunday River was immaculate. Short lines for customer service, clean restrooms, reasonable waits for lifts (no more than 5-10 minutes on the Chondola, others were shorter), and overall a much more chill vibe. And best yet: no vax/mask police.
Not surprising at SR. Boyne's always been top notch in its ops.
I didn't have any issues with lines at HV or 7S, but then again, it may be due to the fact that I'm a twilight skier. I usually saw a bit more digestion on the backside at HV, but everything funnels down to that one lift. If they put that expansion in on skier's right that never made it, that can help spread out people. Hopefully they'll be smart and put a good fixed grip quad over there.
As for food, I can see how it'd be important for some. If you're going to get raped on food prices, it had better be good at least. At least for me, for the most part, unless the place had something signature or really good (say chowder in a bread bowl), I'm bringing my own food and drink. Why pay $3-5 for a bottle of Gatorade when I can get it for about a buck at Target?
Just wish I had a lift friendly bag to make carrying things a little easier
ZARDOG wrote:
Crystal ball says - Staff Shortage next winter. more covid waves.
Well they have plenty of time to figure out how to get the work visas and recruit the staff they need. Pay more, work out housing deals or move jobs around to be more efficient. Other resorts adapted by buying self service ticket booths, fix epic mix for mobile ordering, get RFID gates instead of having 3 or 4 people scanning (have them help lines move instead), contract food trucks or “snowcats” to help with weekend dining.
Vail fixed some staffing and management issues in the second half of this season, if they can’t build on that they need to figure out why. COVID can’t be an excuse forever. Employee retention efforts should already be in progress, and hiring plans should be starting.
Edit: I will most likely only ski the local vail resorts next season if things go the same way they did this year. While the back bowls of Vail are unique, I would’ve rather saved the $35 on parking and gone to a resort that felt like it was trying like winter park, copper, aspen, steamboat, and others with free parking, cheaper food, and better snow. Having 3-4 employees checking IDs and vaccination cards and having no soap or towels in a bathroom is just laziness from management. Having 6 people scanning passes and nobody directing lines is a problem that has been solved by gates and one employee at a screen. Long lines for buddy passes or already paid for tickets also solved by self service machines. Grooming issues can be helped by snowmaking and more consistent grooming. Maintaining management and some core staff can be solved by summer events. It’s hard to sympathize with Vail when they haven’t managed to implement solutions other resorts put in place to “avoid human contact” during the 20-21 season, especially when we all know it’s coming again for 22-23
Somebody new will be working on how to handle Park City better than the past season. Mike Goar is moving to Europe. The new Park City COO is coming from Northstar. That's the same progression that Bill Rock did after leaving Snowshoe. He was in charge at Northstar, then Park City doing the transition period. The new COO will report to Rock in his current role as Executive Vice President and COO of VR’s Rocky Mountain Region.
MIKE GOAR TO LEAD ANDERMATT-SEDRUN, AND OTHER VAIL RESORTS MOVES
