Any resort improvements this summer?
Hoping for something at 7S, LM, and TL.
Has anybody heard any dirt about what Vail may or may not be doing at HV, SS, or LM this summer? So far....crickets.
I think its fair to say that the lack of capital investment by Vail has been very noticeable when compared to peer resorts like Holiday Valley and Snowshoe.
What gives???
That is the main reasons I went to a Tline and CV pass combo instead of Epic this year lack of communication about changes or improvements at their resorts. At least CV and Tline continue to invest back in their areas.
trickshotscott wrote:
Has anybody heard any dirt about what Vail may or may not be doing at HV, SS, or LM this summer? So far....crickets.
I think its fair to say that the lack of capital investment by Vail has been very noticeable when compared to peer resorts like Holiday Valley and Snowshoe.
What gives???
I'll keep taking flak on here for being too mean/negative. It's not surprising at all. In fact, it's their MO. Cut it to the bone + sell more season passes.
There has been a bit of a reckoning in other similar industries as the realities of continued inflation and a stalling economy have impacts on people's discretionary budgets. We shall see what this upcoming season holds for the ski industry.
trickshotscott wrote:
Has anybody heard any dirt about what Vail may or may not be doing at HV, SS, or LM this summer? So far....crickets.
I think its fair to say that the lack of capital investment by Vail has been very noticeable when compared to peer resorts like Holiday Valley and Snowshoe.
What gives???
Leo - from what I have seen at other Vail resorts like Breckenridge, Okemo, Keystone, Mt. Snow and Stowe, there was quite a bit of investment. However, we certainly haven't seen much here. I think everyone needs to bring this up to Vail. Look at the condition of the HV ski lodge. As far as snow making, I understand they had a lot of mechanical issues last year at HV. The main pump that they replaced failed soon after. There were also some major pipe leaks and fan gun failures. The important thing I would say is have they or are they fixing these problems? I think we should ask Brett directly. Also, if Massanutten, a mountain in southern VA can remain 100% open for 50 days, why can't the mountains in the Laurels? M'nut invested alot of money in snow making. If Vail wants to compete locally, they need to do similar. I don't think their operations are bad, but they can be better. I would imagine they probably lost money last year on the overall PA operations. Liberty, Whitetail and Roundtop has serious challenges keeping snow on those mountains with the impact of climate change. However, weather patterns are also a major contributor. Resorts in the Mid-west were barely able to open for much of the winter. I figure if California's weather patterns can change to eliminate drought conditions, PA weather patterns can change back to being snowy. I send emails to Vail management with my concerns. And they respond. If they do make improvements, they should market those improvements.
Leo wrote:
I'll keep taking flak on here for being too mean/negative. It's not surprising at all. In fact, it's their MO. Cut it to the bone + sell more season passes.
There has been a bit of a reckoning in other similar industries as the realities of continued inflation and a stalling economy have impacts on people's discretionary budgets. We shall see what this upcoming season holds for the ski industry.
trickshotscott wrote:
Has anybody heard any dirt about what Vail may or may not be doing at HV, SS, or LM this summer? So far....crickets.
I think its fair to say that the lack of capital investment by Vail has been very noticeable when compared to peer resorts like Holiday Valley and Snowshoe.
What gives???
At HV, the only "improvements" I've seen in the last 5 years have been improvements to reduce liability. For example, the deck outside the cafeteria, which. if not rebuilt, would have likely collapsed. The pines that were planted as a buffer zone between skiers and traffic alongside Gardner... But even in the liability category, they still have plenty of "slip and fall" issues with the plaza's omni stone cracking up over the years - they've been replacing pieces of stone one by one. Has anyone even remotely connected to Vail ever been to Hidden Valley? I honestly don't know.
I get that the model has changed, where in the past you'd have 70% walk-up lift-ticket sales and 30% season pass. Today, it's almost the inverse of that, and it's certainly in Vail's best interest to get those season passes racked up aplenty and early in the season. (They certainly enjoy a built-in given number of seasons to be purchased by those who own there (the foundation)) But if they're only going by numbers / data I'm afraid you won't see many well-thought-out improvements at HV.
Lots of pipe at the top of the main lift at seven springs, some fairly big pipes.
Spoke with someone *very* much in a position to comment. There *is* money for a new lift, maybe 2 years out, certainly by five years out, probably to replace North Face lift. There is a lot of debate about where that lift should drop skiers off. It will be a nice fixed grip 4-seat like the new Avalanche lift.
I told the individual about the deck at Tahoe, which is a disaster and needs treated and the person agreed and will see what they can do. It is pretty frustrating, because a lot of this maintenance and upkeep should be routine. These are not big ticket items, they seem to just be falling through the cracks of a spreadsheet.
Maybe a few of us can make get together and make a prioritized list of "requests from skiers and resort enthusiasts" to pass along to Brett Cook and others. They might even agree to have a sit down with us. I read this forum avidly (thank you Scott) and the points made are valid, but couched in negative terms that will not resonate where we need them to resonate. BTW, those folks *do* read these boards, but they are very strongly prohibited from commenting or posting here (all of that has to go through their media operations). Maybe people higher up the food chain like Laurel Hill Crazy could spearhead this. I think that it is time to stop the adhoc complaints and organize them coherently.
I don't mean to be a curmudgeon. I know some boots on the ground people at HV very well, they certainly aren't executives for Vail but they are important in the day to day operations at the resort. And most of them care about the resort more than I do. And they're great people.
However, with that said, it's not my job to tell Vail how to run their resorts. Their BOD and shareholders (indirectly) should be doing that. Heck, I might unwittingly be a shareholder through my 401K.
Unfortunately, it's barely an industry where we can vote with our dollars and feet, which is normally my preference. Meaning: for those of us in and around Western PA it's basically a monopoly. I can't easily go ski at a non-Vail resort without significant travel time.
They know they have me over a barrel. I already have my 2025 passes. The only way the needle moves is if the casual skiers stop coming. And I'm not even sure that would be enough of an impact to initiate real change.
making up for lost time wrote:
Maybe a few of us can make get together and make a prioritized list of "requests from skiers and resort enthusiasts" to pass along to Brett Cook and others. They might even agree to have a sit down with us. I read this forum avidly (thank you Scott) and the points made are valid, but couched in negative terms that will not resonate where we need them to resonate. BTW, those folks *do* read these boards, but they are very strongly prohibited from commenting or posting here (all of that has to go through their media operations). Maybe people higher up the food chain like Laurel Hill Crazy could spearhead this. I think that it is time to stop the adhoc complaints and organize them coherently.
Sorry it took a bit to reply. I'm afraid I never was that high on the food chain. I'm just a persistent loudmouth. My contacts within the state parks are now nil. Unfortunately, the 7S manager I worked most closely with passed away.
The last few years the type of improvements I've advocated should be doable under their present operating budget. Last season for Laurel, I asked that all the natural snow trails and slopes be mowed and deadfall in the glades be removed. That should be a no-brainer but for years the only maintenance done on those trails was done by my volunteer groups. Last season all the trails were mowed but the glades still need attention. Laurel needs more snowmaking. That is a huge investment if you consider that half the mountain doesn't have the infrastructure to support snowmaking. We are talking millions of dollars. Right now that doesn't appear likely given the volume of visits needed to justify that expense. However, trails like Lincoln Highway might be covered with existing infrastructure from nearby Innsbruck and Broadway. It would require more ground guns, hoses, and labor.
As for 7S, I'm not sure they got Giant Steps open at all last season. Perhaps we should start there. I always thought the North Face slope was the best terrain on the backside but it is underutilized. Most backside skiers stick to the Gunner six-pack and when Giant Steps isn't available, that's a lot of traffic for the rest of the terrain. A new North Face lift would encourage greater use, but given the masses' love of high-speed lifts, a new fixed grip might be ignored.
I haven't skied HV for many years but that may change this season. I now have a grandson to teach.
I think LM could benefit from some added portable fan guns. Like you indicated, Lincoln Hwy could be covered. Perhaps Hegan’s Cut and maybe Laurel Run could also be opened with fan gun snow. Maybe other Vail owned resorts, as they replace older fan guns with newer models, could send the refurbished hand-me-downs to LM.
i think LM did an excellent job keeping snow on the main trails last season. Hopefully, they do the same this year.
We are at the halfway point between last season the new one.
Blue Mountain is upgrading their snowmaking again. Larger pipes and automated TA fan and tower guns on 14 trails. They state they can operate the system to cover 60% of the terrain at one time.
Hatley Point continues to tease us on the improvements being made for the revamped resort.
Any word on Tline and CV improvements, both have been quiet?
Glad to know that today is closer to the beginning of the 2024-25 season than it is to the end of the 2023-24 season. Outdoors, it sure doesn't feel like the days are getting shorter though. Whew!
Massanutten has done a great job of implementing their 50th Anniversary expansions of terrain, snowmaking, and so forth over the past few years. Developments have been pretty much on schedule. Has anyone noticed progress on the last new proposed trail: Cruisin', located to skier's right of Upper Makattack?
Woody
CVR is looking for a Mountain Manager and someone to head up ski patrol/safety director. Both are full-time but at less than adequate wages. There are other issues at work there that I could dive into but won't. Meanwhile, Timberline is continuing its capital investments. Their main issue to resolve is parking which will be difficult.
33.5 in the valley on Monday AM. Won't be long now.
Hello All.
Any dirt you on upgrades/impovements at the Springs, Hidden Valley, and Laurel?
I emailed Brett kindly requesting some type of update since Vail social media has been quiet. Patiently awaiting a response.
Cheers!
bousquet19 wrote:
Glad to know that today is closer to the beginning of the 2024-25 season than it is to the end of the 2023-24 season. Outdoors, it sure doesn't feel like the days are getting shorter though. Whew!
Massanutten has done a great job of implementing their 50th Anniversary expansions of terrain, snowmaking, and so forth over the past few years. Developments have been pretty much on schedule. Has anyone noticed progress on the last new proposed trail: Cruisin', located to skier's right of Upper Makattack?
Woody
I stopped by Mnut on the way home from Lake Placid. From what I could see, there is nothing happening related to the planned blue trail off the top of the triple.
The big construction project on the mountain is for the alpine slide. They ran into far more rock than expected. As happened when the ski school building was built. So that could be a reason for not working on another mountain project. They are also in the midst of a major expansion for the water park, including adding an attached hotel.
The alpine slide is above the tubing hill. The start/end is near the MegaZip. The space between tubing and the bottom of the green trail with the long magic carpet was not being used. People who do the MegaZip ride up the magic carpet used for tubing to get to the start tower. That tower is about at the 2/3 point when going down the alpine slide. The alpine slide crosses the road that leads to Summit units, including the building close to the top of Pacesetter.
Massanutten alpine slide construction, as of August 26, 2024
Not really an improvement, but Massanutten seems to have changed their approach to 70+ folks. Used to have a pass for $19. For 2024-25 all I can find on the website is the Special Value Pass for $75. The SVP is $400 or so for younger folks, depending on when the purchase is made. It's good Sun-Fri, including nights, plus Sat after 4pm. The Christmas week is blacked out but MLK Day and Pres. Day weekends (Sun-Mon) are okay.
I'm not quite old enough yet, but have a friend who made use of the cheap pass last season. It was the first season after moving to DC.
wgo wrote:
Did Mnut decide to not proceed with the new blue run to skiers right of Mak Attak? Not a complaint given all of the improvements over the past few years but I am curious.
My guess is that having put in the ridge blue earlier to connect to Showtime, there isn't as much of a priority to build the last new trail. The priority for this summer was the construction of the alpine slide. Since that's taking longer than expected, could be a while before they decide to add another ski trail.
Mnut is also in the midst of expanding the waterpark, including building a hotel next to it that will be connected to the water park.
Looks like LM does have a new blue winch cat.....
Zardog, well my real gig is based on metrics.
Plus 25 years of skidome. The snow we ski on is still better then the snow made 20 years ago.
last 3 winters 3 years late opens the last year the worst.
Time will tell in the next 2 seasons.
The Avg Ocean temp continue to rise the last few years. That in itself is not good.
Heat drives more extreme weather. hurricanes, Thunderstorms, Flash Floods and Tornadoes.
The investments by vail and others were 2 billion.
Most to replace 30+ year old lifts. Really a liability and insurance is not cheap.
Insurance in USA went up 19 to 26% this year.
Go back in time the last few years a lot was replaced.
Peter does a nice job tracking lifts
https://liftblog.com/2024-new-lifts/
The liftblog site has 2025 and 2026 posted.
The Number of passes sold peaked. The covid reaction is now done.
Remember many like me age/injury or move out of skiing.
I no longer try to get 30+ days/nights.
For me the untapped resort is CV, lots of varied terrain, skiers mountain. Their snow making has been suspect for many years. They use to get good snows and that would provide for an awesome ski experience, however those days are gone. Don’t know when was the last time they had a good dump. Not sure what the answer is there, put in advancements that equal high ticket prices. Look at SS weekend tickets 139 😳. My go too resort for 2024/25 will be CV however only if the entire Mt is open. Great assortment of runs, very reasonable prices, exceptional senior prices. The biggest problem they need natural snow, especially since they don’t have the infrastructure to make a lot of snow. We shall see.
marzNC wrote:
Not really an improvement, but Massanutten seems to have changed their approach to 70+ folks. Used to have a pass for $19. For 2024-25 all I can find on the website is the Special Value Pass for $75. The SVP is $400 or so for younger folks, depending on when the purchase is made. It's good Sun-Fri, including nights, plus Sat after 4pm. The Christmas week is blacked out but MLK Day and Pres. Day weekends (Sun-Mon) are okay.
I'm not quite old enough yet, but have a friend who made use of the cheap pass last season. It was the first season after moving to DC.
Yes marzNC, I saw that the 70+ pass at Massanutten rose from $19 in 2023-24 to $75 for 2024-25. Sorry to see the virtual freebie disappear, but I’m grateful for the season I had a chance to use that $19 pass. Since I have an Indy this year, I’ll still get to Massanutten 👍
Woody
bousquet19 wrote:
marzNC wrote:
Not really an improvement, but Massanutten seems to have changed their approach to 70+ folks. Used to have a pass for $19. For 2024-25 all I can find on the website is the Special Value Pass for $75. The SVP is $400 or so for younger folks, depending on when the purchase is made. It's good Sun-Fri, including nights, plus Sat after 4pm. The Christmas week is blacked out but MLK Day and Pres. Day weekends (Sun-Mon) are okay.
I'm not quite old enough yet, but have a friend who made use of the cheap pass last season. It was the first season after moving to DC.
Yes marzNC, I saw that the 70+ pass at Massanutten rose from $19 in 2023-24 to $75 for 2024-25. Sorry to see the virtual freebie disappear, but I’m grateful for the season I had a chance to use that $19 pass. Since I have an Indy this year, I’ll still get to Massanutten 👍
Woody
Hope of your Mnut days will be when I'm there in the first half of January.
I have Indy too. May head to Wintergreen for a day trip when I'm staying at Mnut. Haven't skied there in years.
Well apparently Vail has been a busy beaver at 7S/HV/LM:
What is the latest at CVR? Is there anyone in charge to get the pumps hooked up?
kwillg6 wrote:
CVR is looking for a Mountain Manager and someone to head up ski patrol/safety director. Both are full-time but at less than adequate wages. There are other issues at work there that I could dive into but won't. Meanwhile, Timberline is continuing its capital investments. Their main issue to resolve is parking which will be difficult.
