Real estate at Snowshoe, WV seems to have over doubled since 2018 in value. It seems very unaffordable especially for someone looking to invest in rental properties.

Does anyone have any insight to the future for this market?

I would say that before anyone considers investing in property at a ski resort, be sure you thoroughly understand the impact of HOA and other fees and how those increase in the future.  And understand seasonal rental patterns, how much money it costs to place properties in rental programs, etc.  When you factor all of this in, you might realize that these often aren't the kinds of investments you can expect a long-term return on -- they're a money sink.  If you're using it yourself and getting enjoyment out of having your own property, that might be OK.  But I've heard from quite a few people over the years that took a huge loss dumping resort properties - they bought into the hope that they would be investments that would pay for themselves, and that's often not the case.  Also, consider the impact things like climate change might have on resorts.  Snowshoe is a year-round resort and has the highest elevation of any nearby ski area, so those are points going in its favor.  Even so, we can have very mild winters in this region that can absolutely gut rentals that would historically yield the highest nightly rates.  And there are a lot of "beds" available at Snowshoe so the vast majority are going to sit empty most of the year.

I've been covering this for awhile (hearing candidly from both skiers who have bought these properties as well as the resort developers building them or profiting from their inclusion in rental programs), and have never felt an urge to buy a resort property myself.  But that's just my personal feeling.  Others who have done this will have their own firsthand experiences to share.

In any case, if you feel the market is overheated and prices are high, they probably are.  Never good to buy at a peak.  But if I knew how to call a peak or predict the next downturn, my bank account would have a few more decimal places, so take my opinion for what it's worth.

Brian2109 wrote:

Real estate at Snowshoe, WV seems to have over doubled since 2018 in value. It seems very unaffordable especially for someone looking to invest in rental properties.

Does anyone have any insight to the future for this market?

I bought resale in 2015 in expedition. While I’m not a real estate expert the original owners in 2007 paid around 170% of what it worth now even with the changes since 2020. 

In short snowshoe still hasn’t full recovered from the 2008ish housing market crash. Take that for what you will.

A similar topic (although the inverse... right before prices skyrocketed). Personally, I wish I had taken the plunge and bought when I posted this thread give my cost basis for the house + low mortgage rate would have allowed me to break even or make a bit of a profit on annual rentals if I owned it today + I would have a second house to enjoy when I want it. 

With prices now high + mortgage rates still relatively high vs. a few years ago, I can't imagine buying a rental property today and achieving positive cash flow. 

dcski.com (T-Line investing in 2019) 

Absolutely agree, there alot of variables.  Snowshoe has a long off season between the Winter and Summer start up for the golf/ mountain biking season. And visa versa between Summer and Winter start up. Plus with Allegheny Springs being primary check-in during the off-season, rentals in Allegheny may see more activity than other locations in the Village. 

I worked at Stratton with the condo program there before Intrawest (Alterra) built across the street from main Village. Winter rentals do make income but keep in mind unit size and location will effect your income.  During the Summer months 1 and 2 bdrm units rented well where the bigger units did not. Of course they had more offerings with a golf and tennis schools and golf course and now mountain biking. 

As mentioned HOA and rental pool costs definitely play into your income especially if there amenities associated with your location. With Snowshoe, location is key in early season openings at Snowshoe. It would interesting to know if the income under Brigham program is more than standard rental program. Definitely do your homework before purchasing.  Good  luck!

I can provide insight generically about buying a ski country condo and using it as an STR. I bought in Breckenridge in 1997 and did not break even on cash flow for 20 years, but that was OK because we were using the place and could store our gear there. Plus there were tax write offs.

1) You need someone to manage the place for you. My fee was 40% and then the company could deduct expenses (credit card fees, fees from Travelocity, et all, repairs, etc) My take was never more than 50% of gross rental income.

2) Property  taxes, city fees, HOA fees, insurance,  utilities, mortgage all add up.

3)  Then there is general upkeep and modernization that will be required to keep the place rentable.

In general  I had a tax loss about every year of the first 20 - which I could  write off myr taxes as long as my   gross income  was less than $150k (you lose 50 cents of deductibility for every dollar of income over 100k)

I bought when things were cheap. I can't imagine trying to make things work at today's real estate prices.

The good news for me is the place is now worth 700% of what I paid for it.

Good points, Bob. 

As a side note, when I worked in Vail, one of our condo owners at Lionsquare Lodge purchased their 3bdrm unit back in the early 70's for $69, 000 ski in ski out at the base of Lionshead. They sold the unit in the Summer of 1999 for 1.2 million which was probably a good thing. The whole property had a major renovation to match the look of Arrabelle after it was built.  Catching an investment early or at the right time is key,  it have it benefits. 

A good example are all homes and condos sold after the Timberline closed and prior to the purchase by the Perfects. Alot of the units sold for cheap during that time and they have double or tripled in value since they reopened. 

bob wrote:

I can provide insight generically about buying a ski country condo and using it as an STR. I bought in Breckenridge in 1997 and did not break even on cash flow for 20 years, but that was OK because we were using the place and could store our gear there. Plus there were tax write offs.

1) You need someone to manage the place for you. My fee was 40% and then the company could deduct expenses (credit card fees, fees from Travelocity, et all, repairs, etc) My take was never more than 50% of gross rental income.

2) Property  taxes, city fees, HOA fees, insurance,  utilities, mortgage all add up.

3)  Then there is general upkeep and modernization that will be required to keep the place rentable.

In general  I had a tax loss about every year of the first 20 - which I could  write off myr taxes as long as my   gross income  was less than $150k (you lose 50 cents of deductibility for every dollar of income over 100k)

I bought when things were cheap. I can't imagine trying to make things work at today's real estate prices.

The good news for me is the place is now worth 700% of what I paid for it.

I, too, have a place at Hidden Valley, have for about 15 years or so.  I never really considered renting it, even in the beginning for the reasons stated above.  I also didn't want to get into the business of property management when I really just wanted to ski and do all the summer activities you can do in the Laurel Highlands.  Also agree with the sentiment that if I had to rent it to be able to use it off and on, I wouldn't have bought it.

Hidden Valley does not have enough winter renting draw to make it worth it in my opinion. It gets decent public ski traffic, but the properties around it are for the most part owned and used outright, full time / part time.

I'm sure at other resorts with their draw and other variables you can make renting work for you, but as stated, many variables, and really, unless you are serious about property management (multiple properties, etc.) I don't see the upside myself. 

For example, even with just one property you still need someone to manage it, clean it, make it attractive - not the right scale IMHO.

Believe that Snowsmith has provided good advice, and I could add some additional perspective.  Also being from the Baltimore area, I have 2 properties just outside of Hidden Valley, and have been renting for 20 years.  While doing well with it over the years, I would NOT do it now for several reasons:  There is now an oversupply in the rental market.   When I started, AIrbnb & VRBO wasnt even a thing, and  I was among the first few listings in the area; There are now hundreds of listings, some with pricing levels that are programed to reduce to whatever it takes to book.  Demand is very much limited to holidays and prime weekends.     I had purchased properties for cash needing lots of work back when prices were much lower, and being outside the resort I dont have HOA fees so my cost basis is low.  Costs are now much higher across the board not only to purchase, but the related taxes, utilities, and expenses.  At current price levels to start over would simply not be profitable, and even with my low cost basis I am now looking at this as basically a break even proposition. 

I would say this is even more true with Condos and Townhouses within the resort, since they have less differentiation are more tied to the resort and short/often variable ski season.   Property values took a big hit it back in 2008 when there an incredible number of properties on the market for a very long time.   Values have recovered/exceeded, but it took a long time and buying an S&P ETF would have been a much better investment with less hassle. Prices are now higher, while rental income is decreasing, so buyer beware. 

With all that said, I would not trade the experience of having a mountain getaway and memories with family and friends, and feel very fortunate with my timing.   Some things just go beyond the numbers:  Just be prepared to write checks every month to cover it.  

Tons of good advice above. Here are my 2 pennies ....

Based on your post, you are looking to INVEST.

We owned 2 condos in Snowshoe for almost 20 years. We also owned 2 condos in Myrtle Beach at the same time. We self-managed our mom and pop rental agency to maximize our cash flows to avoid the 30 - 40% management fees. Our goal was to break even, enjoy a week or so at each property while gaining long-term appreciation for the condos.

If you are willing to do the WORK it can be profitable .... in the LONG RUN.  Building wealth with OPM (other people's money) is a long-term play and requires some effort.

For reference, I'm a retired CPA. The tax advantages are enticing. I learned from one of the best. My company rented space from the Debartolo family in Youngstown OH. I became friends with their CFO over the years. I told him I had invested in my first property in Myrtle Beach. He chuckled and said it was the 2nd happiest day of my life. He said the day you sell it will be your happiest. He was spot on.

We've since liquidated all our properties and invested in REITS as I'm no longer willing to do the WORK.

I cannot stress enough that it requires TIME and EFFORT to maximize your investment. 

Brian2109 wrote:

Real estate at Snowshoe, WV seems to have over doubled since 2018 in value. It seems very unaffordable especially for someone looking to invest in rental properties.

Does anyone have any insight to the future for this market?

I had looked at property at Snowshoe, and in hindsight as a Homeowner and Vacation Rental Host, I am glad that I purchased in the Laurel Highands.  Nothing against Snowshow as a resort and have had great time when there, but it would be about 5 hrs from my home in suburban MD, vs 3 hrs to the Laural Highlands.  3 hrs each way is plenty long for monthly trips I take there;  5 hrs each way is a big difference, and would make a 2 night weekend trip much more stressful.    Additionally, Laurel Highlands trip is on major highways, with the turnpike just few min away, vs the rural roads to Snowshoe and all that implies for delays.  

Also I think of all the trips I have made to the Lowes and Walmart which are 15min away in Somerset PA, vs Snowshoe where you are looking at a very long trip to commercial centers. For these same reasons of local amenities, believe Laurel Highands are more conducive to retirement or remote work.  As a homeowner and landlord, these  practical factors quickly become important.  As Blue Don put it, you will need to put the work into it yourself to be sucessful over the long haul; Even if you have a local housekeeper and handyman, you will need to go there fairly often and spend your time dealing with issues.  

 Totally agree. Snowshoe is probably the best ski mountain in the Mid-Atlantic, but it is a 5.5 hour drive from my northern Baltimore Co home, where as HV is a 3.25 hr drive on good roads, Additionally, we have 3 ski areas and if you count Wisp and Blue Knob, we have  5. I can be in downtown Pittsburgh in 1 hour where there is one of the best jazz scenes in the Country as well as theater, restaurants and museums. A big bonus. We also have Ligonier, a cool little town with great restaurants  a short drive away, I wish we had more elevation and more vertical, but considering all the factors, I am glad I bought in the Larel Highlands. I did, at one time consider purchasing a ski house at Wintergreen and in the Canaan Valley area.

Laurel Highlands wrote:

I had looked at property at Snowshoe, and in hindsight as a Homeowner and Vacation Rental Host, I am glad that I purchased in the Laurel Highands.  Nothing against Snowshow as a resort and have had great time when there, but it would be about 5 hrs from my home in suburban MD, vs 3 hrs to the Laural Highlands.  3 hrs each way is plenty long for monthly trips I take there;  5 hrs each way is a big difference, and would make a 2 night weekend trip much more stressful.    Additionally, Laurel Highlands trip is on major highways, with the turnpike just few min away, vs the rural roads to Snowshoe and all that implies for delays.  

Also I think of all the trips I have made to the Lowes and Walmart which are 15min away in Somerset PA, vs Snowshoe where you are looking at a very long trip to commercial centers. For these same reasons of local amenities, believe Laurel Highands are more conducive to retirement or remote work.  As a homeowner and landlord, these  practical factors quickly become important.  As Blue Don put it, you will need to put the work into it yourself to be sucessful over the long haul; Even if you have a local housekeeper and handyman, you will need to go there fairly often and spend your time dealing with issues.  

 Blue Don,

We own 1 at SS and have been teasing with a myrtle for 3 yrs, but are turned off by the manipulation in the RE market and the high HOA's (direct ocean front).  Interested in your experiences, time frame and the statement  "He said the day you sell it will be your happiest. He was spot on." (Sounds like same thing as a boat!)

Thanks, Swoop

Blue Don 1982 wrote:

Tons of good advice above. Here are my 2 pennies ....

Based on your post, you are looking to INVEST.

We owned 2 condos in Snowshoe for almost 20 years. We also owned 2 condos in Myrtle Beach at the same time. We self-managed our mom and pop rental agency to maximize our cash flows to avoid the 30 - 40% management fees. Our goal was to break even, enjoy a week or so at each property while gaining long-term appreciation for the condos.

If you are willing to do the WORK it can be profitable .... in the LONG RUN.  Building wealth with OPM (other people's money) is a long-term play and requires some effort.

For reference, I'm a retired CPA. The tax advantages are enticing. I learned from one of the best. My company rented space from the Debartolo family in Youngstown OH. I became friends with their CFO over the years. I told him I had invested in my first property in Myrtle Beach. He chuckled and said it was the 2nd happiest day of my life. He said the day you sell it will be your happiest. He was spot on.

We've since liquidated all our properties and invested in REITS as I'm no longer willing to do the WORK.

I cannot stress enough that it requires TIME and EFFORT to maximize your investment. 

 

Brian2109 wrote:

Real estate at Snowshoe, WV seems to have over doubled since 2018 in value. It seems very unaffordable especially for someone looking to invest in rental properties.

Does anyone have any insight to the future for this market?

Hey Swoop - IMO, the tremendous increase in insurance premiums on coastal properties make it difficult to run a profitable rental in MB.

My thing was cash flow balance. Snowshoe $$ in the winter MB $$ in the summer.

Yeah,

That's a great point on the insurance premiums.  Very few properties could I get the numbers to work and now with higher insurance/HOA's and prices difficult to justify for me.

 When HV was at its peak, during the Buncher years, I could have gotten a townhouse there for a song.  
I learned to snowboard at HV.  I worked near the Pittsburgh international airport and would leave a bit early, change into my gear in the car, and then drive to HV to ride for a few hours then drive home an hour.  
When HV gets snow, it's a blast.  When mother nature is providing natural snow, HV has the best snowmaking equipment still to this day.  If they would invest a bit on fixing things they've let go and spend on the automation available, they could blow 7S away with snow quality.  

Yes it's missing the vertical, so they should focus on bump skiing, and parks.
At a minimum, HV doesnt have as many drunks as 7S.  7S is just flat out negligently over serving people. 

snowsmith wrote:

I own a townhouse at Hidden Valley Resort, PA and I have owned for 20 years. I use it often especially since I retired. I have never rented the place since I use it so often. While the HV ski area is a bit lacking in vertical and challenge, the HV community of 1,100 homes is master planned and thus the community is very attractive. We have 2 pools, a golf course, tennis and pickle ball courts, play grounds, miles of walking trails, extensive public lands, parks lakes and outdoor recreation facilities nearby and of course the Vail owned ski area. Nearby is Vail owned Laurel Mtn and 7Springs. Since I bought in 2004, my investment has appreciated more than 100%. If I would have rented the place, I could have covered more of my costs including the taxes, community fees and maintenance. However, I don't want strangers sleeping in my bed. I frankly don't think that resort real estate is a great investment. I bought this place to enjoy the outdoor activities in the summer and fall and the skiing in the winter. The bonus has been being 1 hour from Pittsburgh which has a great cultural scene ( I am from the Baltimore area). If you're buying a ski property for an investment, I suggest you invest your money elsewhere. If you're buying to use it frequently and to enjoy all the resort area has to offer, I highly recommend it. My opinion is, if you need to rent it, you can't afford a resort property. 

Wow, I had no idea properties were that expensive back then.  I surely would have thought that prices had recovered since the 2008 recession.

rbrtlav wrote:

Brian2109 wrote:

Real estate at Snowshoe, WV seems to have over doubled since 2018 in value. It seems very unaffordable especially for someone looking to invest in rental properties.

Does anyone have any insight to the future for this market?

 

I bought resale in 2015 in expedition. While I’m not a real estate expert the original owners in 2007 paid around 170% of what it worth now even with the changes since 2020. 

In short snowshoe still hasn’t full recovered from the 2008ish housing market crash. Take that for what you will.

The Kettler years were peak imho (if you factor in the resort), but Buncher did keep it reasonably competitive.  In 2009, when I purchased a place, the community was creepily quiet in the summer.  About 35% vacant, not counting owners who weren't there at the time.  Some units rented by oil and gas workers.  Still, not a bad thing when you want to get away to some peace and quiet.  The prices weren't exactly that low at that point, either.  Then covid.  Everyone decided they'd work from the mountains.  Suddenly its almost 100% purchased. Prices "rose" - in Pennsylvania terms. Not a whole lot, but just enough.  Today, some of those new homeowners are already gone.  I can only speculate, but some of that probably has to do with the lack of investment in the resort itself.  Though the resort and foundation are separate, both need to be able to develop hand in hand.

Grumpy dad wrote:

 When HV was at its peak, during the Buncher years, I could have gotten a townhouse there for a song.  
I learned to snowboard at HV.  I worked near the Pittsburgh international airport and would leave a bit early, change into my gear in the car, and then drive to HV to ride for a few hours then drive home an hour.  
When HV gets snow, it's a blast.  When mother nature is providing natural snow, HV has the best snowmaking equipment still to this day.  If they would invest a bit on fixing things they've let go and spend on the automation available, they could blow 7S away with snow quality.  

Yes it's missing the vertical, so they should focus on bump skiing, and parks.
At a minimum, HV doesnt have as many drunks as 7S.  7S is just flat out negligently over serving people. 

snowsmith wrote:

I own a townhouse at Hidden Valley Resort, PA and I have owned for 20 years. I use it often especially since I retired. I have never rented the place since I use it so often. While the HV ski area is a bit lacking in vertical and challenge, the HV community of 1,100 homes is master planned and thus the community is very attractive. We have 2 pools, a golf course, tennis and pickle ball courts, play grounds, miles of walking trails, extensive public lands, parks lakes and outdoor recreation facilities nearby and of course the Vail owned ski area. Nearby is Vail owned Laurel Mtn and 7Springs. Since I bought in 2004, my investment has appreciated more than 100%. If I would have rented the place, I could have covered more of my costs including the taxes, community fees and maintenance. However, I don't want strangers sleeping in my bed. I frankly don't think that resort real estate is a great investment. I bought this place to enjoy the outdoor activities in the summer and fall and the skiing in the winter. The bonus has been being 1 hour from Pittsburgh which has a great cultural scene ( I am from the Baltimore area). If you're buying a ski property for an investment, I suggest you invest your money elsewhere. If you're buying to use it frequently and to enjoy all the resort area has to offer, I highly recommend it. My opinion is, if you need to rent it, you can't afford a resort property. 

We own a condo in Snowshoe, and were able to buy it at probably the most ideal time: 2013. Prices were wayyyy down following the crash, and Snowshoe introduced the Ridiculous Pass, a season pass for $200, plus a kid gets a free season pass for every adult who buys one. I figured people would be very interested in more trips to ski, and we rented out our condo in the winter when we didn't use it ourselves. I would not recommend buying a single unit as an investment, especially not at this time. Like many said above, it takes significant time to manage rentals unless you want a management co. taking a big bite of things. If you are using it just for fun and don't need the rental income go for it, but as just an investment it would be too much work for my tastes. 

That being said, we have loved our condo, even after having to dump a bunch of money in it for renovations inside, and having to dump even more money into it for special assessment/capital projects for the entire building (think roofs, siding, etc).

HOA fees up top are outrageous and will compel you to rent out your place. Not my thing.

Snowshoe real estate isn't cheap anymore, and there is less to choose from right now.

Look at properties to purchase in the spring and summer, close in the fall. Be patient.  Many properties that are for sale now

are being rented out so they cannot be easily viewed in the winter. First Tracts and ReMax have good

offices at Snowshoe. Check Zillow in Pocahontas and Randolph Counties if you don't mind driving up the mt. There are nice single family home communities in the Slatyfork/ Linwood area there too. That's where a lot of local skiers and residents live because of the higher HOA fees up top.

Buy a good 4WD truck with meat eater tires and a set of chains with the HOA cash that you save by living at 2800-3200 feet instead of 4800.