I'm in the process of looking at homes for sale in Old Timberline. I've been skiing there for years, and have an affinity for it's rustic vibe and deep snow pack that reminds me of the older ski resorts in upstate NY. However with a number of friends that live out that way telling me that it sounds like bankruptcy proceedings may already be in process I'm very hesitant to purchase. Does anyone have information, views, or opinions? I'm all ears as I don't want to buy a place that has the lifts shut down. 

Thanks,

Joe

I am a current Timberline homeowner.  I have no real "inside information" but people I know who are in a position to know, do not say that bankruptcy is imminent.  Forecasting the financial demise of Timberline has been a favorite sport around here for many years, and yet the current owners remain in business.  

But here's a thought from a different angle:  In the past 4 years, both Wisp and Wintergreen have either gone through bankruptcy (Wisp) or narrowly avoided it (Wintergreen) according to published news stories.  Those are both bigger resorts that from the outside appear more stable than Timberline.  Running a ski area south of the Mason-Dixon line is just an inherently unstable business.  But even when resorts do go through bankruptcy, sometimes (if they find a buyer with new capital to invest) they emerge stronger after bankruptcy than before. 

Joe - you asked for opinions so here ya go.

There appears to be a history of early closings, late openings and mechanical issues.  Why would YOU want to bear that risk with YOUR hard earned money?

I was told a few years ago that seasonal rentals are very affordable.  Why not go that route until things stabilize there?  If things got bad there then you are only on the hook for that seasons rent.  You could always buy in at a later date.  Stability may come at a little premium in price but sleeping well at night has value.

As a Snowshoe homeowner, R/E prices are hardly increasing since the real estate crash and things are fairly stable in our neck of the woods.  

Don't let that affinity for its rustic charm fool you.  Writing checks to own and maintain property that can't be used (skiing) is real and it sucks.  Nov and Dec 2015 were eye openers for many people --- and put me at the top of that list.

Don't buy a house in the Canaan Valley area based on a ski resort. Buy a house in the Canaan Valley area because you love the Canaan Valley area all the months you can't ski.

ChmxJoe74 wrote:

Hello,

I'm in the process of looking at homes for sale in Old Timberline. I've been skiing there for years, and have an affinity for it's rustic charm that reminds me of the older ski resorts in upstate NY. However with a number of friends that live out that way telling me that it sounds like bankruptcy proceedings may already be in process I'm very hesitant to purchase. Does anyone have information, views, or opinions? I'm all ears as I don't want to buy a place that has the lifts shut down. 

Thanks,

Joe

T-line suffered a pretty catestrophic lift failure with only a month or so remaining in the season.  Rather than give up and spend the summer patching things up they ponied up and surprised everyone by throwing the kitchen sink at the lift upgrading the supports on all of the lift towers while fixing the fallen one. 

That convinced me they are serious about staying in the ski resort business.  However, there may be legal action pending from people that were injured when the tower top fell.  No clue if there are still costs to settle up there but again, they could have easily shut it all down when that lift came crashing down rather than getting after it and cranking things back up for a couple more weeks.

I'd like to have a house there.  It's too far to drive for weekend skiing day trips.  Fun place to spend the weekend and holiday breaks though..

Umm, aren't there two downhill ski areas in Canaan Valley?

yellowsnow wrote:

Umm, aren't there two downhill ski areas in Canaan Valley?

1.5 if you combine the two 

lol - that was good. 

Do you like snowmobile races?  If so then you should buy at Timberline, because they always shutdown 1-2 weeks early to save the snow for them.

There are 3 downhill ski areas, two of which have mechanized uphill transport.

yellowsnow wrote:

Umm, aren't there two downhill ski areas in Canaan Valley?

That makes it an uphill ski area....not that there's anything wrong with that.... ;)

From Timberline's Facebook a few days back: 

"A few announcements: As a reminder, just as most restaurants are closed on Mondays as a matter of course, Timberline--like every other ski resort in the country and region-- scales down to administrative staff after ski season to evaluate the previous season, plan the next season, and... to take a break. 

This is our 31st year of addressing community and (now largely former) staff "rumors" that we are closing or selling Timberline. Behind the gossip is, unfortunately, a desire to create fear, uncertainty and doubt in the community and the public by competitors, disgruntled former employees, or merely low-end local gossip. We would like to assure you that if Timberline can survive the worst winter in the history of skiing, which we clearly have, we will be a presence both locally and in the southeast market for many years to come. 

Our property management division, Timberline Four Seasons Realty (304-866-2127) is running at its usual capacity for homeowners and renters enjoying the area under new management. Usually the scenic lift opens on Memorial Day. This year was a particularly rainy spring, so we elected to open the lift for the July 4 weekend--Friday, Saturday, Sunday and Monday. We hope you will join us for a a fun-filled independence Day weekend.

Some of you have inquired about our zipline. This was a joint venture between ourselves and Nelson Rocks. Timberline has concluded that the staffing of the zip has been uneven, and the profits marginal. The assumption among the public has been that Timberline has been responsible for these failures. We have concluded that our partnership with Nelson Rocks has been one of uneven performance, and is therefore unworkable going forward. If you have visited our facility and noticed that the zipline is closed when it has been advertised as open, you begin to get the picture. Timberline considered operating the zipline itself, but concluded that our resources are better used in further developing recreational opportunities within the scope of our core mission of hiking, biking and skiing. 

The quicksilver industry of adventure recreation also leads to escalating adventure experiences, and a simple zipline no longer has the appeal it once did three years ago when this zip was installed. We wish our partners at Nelson Rocks all the best in developing and expanding its core mission throughout the region.

Thank you for your support, and see you this summer."

There is no way their core mission is anything close to skiing. 

yellowsnow wrote:

That makes it an uphill ski area....not that there's anything wrong with that.... ;)

I've seen some downhill videos from whitegrass that make me wish I was in good enough shape to enjoy the area.  It's beautiful.  Unfortunately, I feel that I would have to start skiing around 6am to make it up the hill once.

AndyGene wrote:

yellowsnow wrote:

That makes it an uphill ski area....not that there's anything wrong with that.... ;)

 

I've seen some downhill videos from whitegrass that make me wish I was in good enough shape to enjoy the area.  It's beautiful.  Unfortunately, I feel that I would have to start skiing around 6am to make it up the hill once.

As a fat old man I can tell you it's not that bad.  Technique more than strength.  MIne sucks but it's easy to imagine spending time to improve.  And when you wear out you just turn around.   

As another fat old man I can endorse that.  Accept your limits, slow down, look around, appreciate where you are.  

Nothing to see here folks, just low end locals gossiping

http://www.psc.state.wv.us/scripts/WebDocket/ViewDocument.cfm?CaseActivityID=452825&NotType=%27WebDocket

http://www.psc.state.wv.us/scripts/orders/ViewDocument.cfm?CaseActivityID=451198&Source=Docket

Well snap my dragon...

dr bighair wrote:

Nothing to see here folks, just low end locals gossiping

 

http://www.psc.state.wv.us/scripts/WebDocket/ViewDocument.cfm?CaseActivityID=452825&NotType=%27WebDocket

 

http://www.psc.state.wv.us/scripts/orders/ViewDocument.cfm?CaseActivityID=451198&Source=Docket

Oh look at that.  I seem to recall they had a HUGE emergency equipment repair bill right before that power bill was due.. Creative financing??  Were they hoping the snowmobile races would generate the revenue required to pay the power bill and the lift repairs?  I guess we will see if they can resolve the debt before November to keep the juice and water flowing.

Gotta respect them for paying their employees first and making the power company wait.. as long as it doesn't really result in home owners down line not having water..

Folks, let's not go down this road again.  Making personal accusations or negative comments against individuals is against DCSki's usage policy and won't be tolerated.  (realmccoy: I deleted one of the two posts you made because it solidly crossed that line.)  You can describe why you like or dislike local ski resorts, but DCSki is not intended to be the National Enquirer of ski sites.

Nothing to see here folks, it's nothing new, for thirty years just been low end locals rumors

http://www.whitegrass.com/downloads/Timberline%20Not%20Sold.doc

This, and other complaints/suits, will churn through the legal system but rest assured water service will not be cut off to homeowners nor power to the treatment plant.  No court would permit that.

yellowsnow wrote:

This, and other complaints/suits, will churn through the legal system but rest assured water service will not be cut off to homeowners nor power to the treatment plant.  No court would permit that.

This but if the resort did fold the costs of reworking the infrastructure around the no gone resort would be passed down to the homeowners still needing the services.

Well after everything said above this may sound crazy, but I just became the newest local in Old Timberline. Let's hope things work out, and if not should make for some great touring/skinning. 

Congrats Joe!  Btw, what area is considered "Old" Timberline?

I am jelaus!  I would love to have a house in the mountains.

ChmxJoe,  way to go.   And if you love the place for all seasons anyway, have skins, and are not tthe type that is looking for some kind of rental payday, than you have done great.  I'm an outsider but I really love the canaan valley

 I was not clear from your post how familiar you are with the area, ...if your user name, CHMX... indicates you have just sold your chalet in Chamonix, then I imagine you may have just purchased ALL of "old" Timberline

Lol, I did live in Chamonix, but as a ski bum in a place about the size of a large bathroom. However, it did look straight up at the Aguille Du Midi. 

I don't think I'll rent it as I want an escape from the madness of DC, and yes it's even more beautiful out there in the summer (powder days excluded). 

@Bonski - if I'm not mistaken Old Timberline is all of the houses on the ridge sitting skier's right of Timberline.

Now to start prioritzing the fix it list. It's a big one! Anyone have suggestions on local contractors/handyman?

Cheers, 

We have used Mark III (based in Thomas) and have found their work to be high quality, though a bit pricey too.

ChmxJoe74 wrote:

@Bonski - if I'm not mistaken Old Timberline is all of the houses on the ridge sitting skier's right of Timberline.

Now to start prioritzing the fix it list. It's a big one! Anyone have suggestions on local contractors/handyman?

Cheers, 

Oh okay.  I bought in Old Snowshoe last Nov.  Been remodeling since, mostly DIY.  Started hardwood floors this weekend.  My advice is to befriend many neighbors and get their advice re contractors.  The good ones are busy so be patient, which I'm not.  Good luck!

Great advice, hopefully I'll get to know some at the upcoming Beer/Music Fest. I'm going to try and DIY as much as I can, which should be quite the learning process. 

ChmxJoe74 wrote:

Great advice, hopefully I'll get to know some at the upcoming Beer/Music Fest. I'm going to try and DIY as much as I can, which should be quite the learning process. 

If you have many projects to tackle I recommend picking a few DIY and some hire out.  I don't rent my place out either, but if you change you mind here's a good article summarizing the income/tax implications:

http://www.bankrate.com/finance/taxes/tax-rules-renting-vacation-home.aspx

Sure glad I don't own any real estate at T-lime! Did have some at SS but sold for half the purchase price just to stop the bleeding!!!

Thanks for the hearing summary RM.  I was hoping to be there myself but the timing didn't work out.  As a long-time Timberline homeowner and Timberline Utilities customer this situation is beyond frustrating.  Hopefully the September 8 hearing will shine some nice clean light on things, but I won't be holding my breath.

Still bet they used the utilities money to fix the lift.  I guess if it was a choice between paying their employees and fixing the lift versus paying the city and utility companies I could see that would be a tough decision of which to put off til summer. 

This four season mountain resort - in business for over 30 years - and within 3.5 hours driving time of 6 million people - can't come up with $85k to pay a utility bill?  Something very wrong with this picture. 

Perhaps a way to raise capital, short sighted in the long term scheme of things.

MorganB

aka The Colonel

Long term scheme of things will probably not involve the current owners.  

The Colonel wrote:

Perhaps a way to raise capital, short sighted in the long term scheme of things.

MorganB

aka The Colonel

About as short sighted as selling season passes that are good for 3-4 years. This insn't the first time we've called out their blatant attempt to survive. 

Where's the GoFundMe page for their utility bills?  Again though, I have to respect thier decision to pay their employees and fix the lift before paying the utility bill if they truly didn't have the capital to pall all of the above.  I love mom and pop places but draw the line at hazardous equipment.

David wrote:

The Colonel wrote:

Perhaps a way to raise capital, short sighted in the long term scheme of things.

MorganB

aka The Colonel

About as short sighted as selling season passes that are good for 3-4 years. This insn't the first time we've called out their blatant attempt to survive.

Not the wisest money/business move on their part.

But if they do open this year (or future owners somehow partially honor the previous passes), I'll come out ahead. So, I won't yell too loudly on this one.

crgildart wrote:

Where's the GoFundMe page for their utility bills?  Again though, I have to respect thier decision to pay their employees and fix the lift before paying the utility bill if they truly didn't have the capital to pall all of the above.  I love mom and pop places but draw the line at hazardous equipment.

I don't know how much Scott will let me get away with. You are assuming they are in good standing with paying off their lift repair bills. Just commenting on your assumption. I DON'T KNOW FOR CERTAIN IF YOUR ASSUMPTION IS TRUE OR FALSE. But you know what the say about "assume."

JohnL wrote:

crgildart wrote:

Where's the GoFundMe page for their utility bills?  Again though, I have to respect thier decision to pay their employees and fix the lift before paying the utility bill if they truly didn't have the capital to pall all of the above.  I love mom and pop places but draw the line at hazardous equipment.

I don't know how much Scott will let me get away with. You are assuming they are in good standing with paying off their lift repair bills. Just commenting on your assumption. I DON'T KNOW FOR CERTAIN IF YOUR ASSUMPTION IS TRUE OR FALSE. But you know what the say about "assume."

 

I understand this is a topic some readers are interested in, but since this consistently goes in a direction where some users are posting incendiary information, rumors that I can't verify, unprofessional content that violates DCSki's usage policy, etc., I'm going to have to ask folks to find a different venue for these kinds of discussions.  As I said before, I don't want DCSki to become the National Enquirer of ski sites, and I no longer have the energy for this.  Please respect that.

Scott wrote:

JohnL wrote:

crgildart wrote:

Where's the GoFundMe page for their utility bills?  Again though, I have to respect thier decision to pay their employees and fix the lift before paying the utility bill if they truly didn't have the capital to pall all of the above.  I love mom and pop places but draw the line at hazardous equipment.

I don't know how much Scott will let me get away with. You are assuming they are in good standing with paying off their lift repair bills. Just commenting on your assumption. I DON'T KNOW FOR CERTAIN IF YOUR ASSUMPTION IS TRUE OR FALSE. But you know what the say about "assume."

 

I understand this is a topic some readers are interested in, but since this consistently goes in a direction where some users are posting incendiary information, rumors that I can't verify, unprofessional content that violates DCSki's usage policy, etc., I'm going to have to ask folks to find a different venue for these kinds of discussions.  As I said before, I don't want DCSki to become the National Enquirer of ski sites, and I no longer have the energy for this.  Please respect that.

Understand Scott.

http://www.psc.state.wv.us/scripts/orders/ViewDocument.cfm?CaseActivityID=456982&Source=Docket

This thread has amnesia

I read the referenced Sept 8 Hearing  info and have a curious question: what is difference between Timberline Utilities and Timberline Management?

JohnL wrote:

crgildart wrote:

Where's the GoFundMe page for their utility bills?  Again though, I have to respect thier decision to pay their employees and fix the lift before paying the utility bill if they truly didn't have the capital to pall all of the above.  I love mom and pop places but draw the line at hazardous equipment.

I don't know how much Scott will let me get away with. You are assuming they are in good standing with paying off their lift repair bills. Just commenting on your assumption. I DON'T KNOW FOR CERTAIN IF YOUR ASSUMPTION IS TRUE OR FALSE. But you know what the say about "assume."

 

Actually, I never said they PAID to fix the lift.  I said.. " I have to respect thier decision to pay their employees and fix the lift ".  What I assume is that they fixed the lift because that benefited the workers (who got to earn more money as rather than being way short of earning expectations for the season) and the pass holders (for obvious resons).  If they didn't pay their employees that's something I'd be very interesting in knowing before deciding to ski there ever again.  That place in Canada with the patroller dispute is still on my NEVER EVER list..

TomH wrote:

Heh Timberline Resort Management.  Since your demise seems to be greatly exaggerated could you please update your webpage with your closing date for the 2016-2017 season.  It currently reads March 13, 2016 - unless that is the actual closing date for 2016-2017 season.  I know the Canaan Valley Resorts find this hard to believe but skiers actually make significant financial decisions regarding where to ski, western trips and long term rentals based on decision the local resorts make.  It would be nice if you could at least give us the proposed opening and closing dates (at the bare minimum).  Maybe even post on here as well so we know you are alive and well.

Thanks

I just did a random sampling of the 25+ ski resorts that DCSki covers, and not one has announced a tentative opening or closing date for the 2016-2017 winter season.  Not Whitetail.  Not Seven Springs.  Not Snowshoe Mountain.  Not Wisp.  Few have announced their mid-season event calendars for the upcoming season, partly because it's still September.

Given the crazy variability in early and late season conditions in the Mid-Atlantic (one only needs to look at last season, when it was in the mid-70s on Christmas Eve), the trend has been away from announcing proposed opening dates.  In the 20+ years I've been running DCSki, rarely have I seen resorts hit their proposed opening and closing dates.  If you've invented some kind of magical weather crystal ball, I'm sure the local resorts would be happy to receive your advice.  There's risk to anyone making financial decisions based on the book ends of the Mid-Atlantic ski season.  The only thing you can bank on is that resorts will open when there is enough snow and it makes business sense for them to do so, and they'll end their season when the snow runs out or skiers stop visiting.  Those decisions can't be made with any semblance of accuracy in September.

I think you are going to see a bunch of not advertised tentative dates after last winter. For example snowshoe posted something on Facebook for a countdown to a 11/23 opening. (They are also selling lift tickets for 11/23-3/26, so I suspect there are your tentative dates there)

After last year, I don't think you will see too much hype until the snow guns are on at most resorts

rbrtlav wrote:

I think you are going to see a bunch of not advertised tentative dates after last winter. For example snowshoe posted something on Facebook for a countdown to a 11/23 opening. (They are also selling lift tickets for 11/23-3/26, so I suspect there are your tentative dates there)

After last year, I don't think you will see too much hype until the snow guns are on at most resorts

Except CVR. Just 3 threads down from this one on the main page. They're throwing their hat in the ring already. 

"we plan to open the ski area on December 10 and remain open until March 19, 2017."

I have to disagree with you. Even out west resorts that try to open early, when conditions are likely to be iffy., don't post opening dates. Look at the Loveland and A-Basin's websites and tell me what their opening dates are. You can't because the dates are not there, and yet these two will likely be the first areas in North America  that open this year - in October. . When in October? They don't know. They don't even say October. They very nearly missed it last year.

What's the point of posting an opening date when you really mean " just fooling, we may or may not be open" and everyone knows it?

TomH wrote:

But that holds true in the northeast and the west as well.  But most of those resorts post tentative opening and closing dates.  .........  Tentative opening and closing dates of December 8 - April 1 snow conditions permittting.  Heh how hard is that!!

 

TomH wrote:

Oh - by the way if I was going to run a ski resort to make some dough I think Vail would be a good place to base my model on:

http://www.vail.com/faqdetail/Mountain-Information/What-are-the-resorts-opening-and-closing-dates.axd

Now I know I can book a vacation at these places during these periods and if there is a base they will be open. Period.

 

The difference between Vail and the mid Atlantic is PREDICTABILITY. Vail KNOWS it will either have enough natural snow or cold enough temps to blow enouigh snow to be open on the dates that they say they will be open. Roundtop et all don't have that ability. Using Vail as the model is using the wrong model.

Let's see what  Vail resorts does when it has a hill in a place with iffy snow condtions: Ski Wilmot (Vail's newest hill outside of Chicago). Here's what was on Wilmot's webpage two minutes ago:

""Hours and Pricing Information coming this Fall.For questions, email contact@wilmotmountain.com""

So when Vail is faced with iffy snow condtions for one of it's hills, it does EXACTLY what mid Atlantic resorts do: it does not announce an opening date. Whaddyaknow!

FYI, Vail's other two midwest (iffy snow)  resorts outside of Detroit and Minneaplos don't have opening dates available yet, either.

I think that you can go on past history to get it close for opening and closing.  In the past hills like t-line used to remain open thru mid April, conditions permitting.  The same with Snowshoe.  Recently, though, they have closed in late March, mainly due to the low number of paying skier visits which is walk up business instead of season pass holders.  If there was a marketing plan in place pushing late season skiing we might see a return to later closing dates.    As for opening, it's a crap shoot.  Advertise a tentative date and all will realize why. If I were running a ski area I'd shoot for the earliest possible date to open whatever terrain I could because the public is anxious to get on snow.  Cataloochie in NC is a perfect example as they are usually the first hill open in the east and have killer snowmaking.  K-mart is next in line and notfar behind.  As a  former season pass holder, I never let it bother me as far as open/close dates even if I had a seasonal rental.  I wasn't concerned because I knew my turns would be good whenever it happened. 

TomH wrote:

 Suppose I want to plan a ski vacation that week and I prefer to stay local but I want to lock it down. Guess what guys - I'm not booking in the valley. I'm going to find a resort I know for sure will be open if there is snow that week.

Suppose you want to plan a ski vacation, and you make a non-refundable payment on a condo -- and the resort that "you were sure was going to be open"  turns out to NOT be open. It's cost you your non refundable payment AND your ski vaction - after all you could have gone to a place that was open, I don't know about you, but if that were to happen to me, I would be real PO'd.

TomH wrote:

 

Bob - I looked at Ski Wilmot and it clearly isn't a destination resort.

A Basin and Loveland ARE destination resorts - especially early and late season, and they don't publish opening dates because they don't know for sure when they're going to be able to open.No resort should publish an opening date unless it is reasonably confident that it really will be able to open on that date - at least IMO

As far as closing dates the mantra for those two HAS ALWAYS been - Loveland will close the first Sunday in May(see what snow predicability gets you), and A-Basin will close when it  runs out of snow (May, June, July -- whenver)

So much for clsoing date predicability late season at A-Basin

Tom,

I'm still struggling a bit to understand your argument.  It is a fact of life that ski conditions in the Mid-Atlantic are unpredictable at the beginning and end of the season (or even mid-season -- I've seen resorts temporarily close in January due to warm temperatures).  How is it reasonable to make your business decisions based on these make-believe, tentative opening/closing dates that historically don't track with reality?  Personally, I wouldn't book a trip now at the tail end of a season in the Mid-Atlantic because the risk would be too high.  Heck, I'd be hesitant to do it at the bookends of a season in Colorado or Utah.  I took that risk once, booking a trip to Deer Valley in December (http://www.dcski.com/articles/1160).  Should be plenty of snow then, right?  They only had a tiny fraction of their terrain open.  Conditions were much better back home!

I guess I understand that you're trying to set your rental dates, but is this a rental property you own year-round?  If someone books early in the season and there's no snow, do you lock them in a contract so you have no risk and they're forced to pay?  I'm asking because I want to learn; I don't rent out properties myself.

I have a good understanding of the business side of local ski resorts because I interact with them frequently.  This is a brutal place to run a ski resort, and the climate trends have not been favorable to our area.  Even for year-round resorts, the vast majority of income comes from a very compressed, and highly variable, ski season.  Last winter, local resorts weren't able to get off the ground until January, missing the all-important holiday week between Christmas and New Years.  There are large daily costs associated with keeping a mountain open and staffed.  And every year, as soon as we get the first mild day in late February or early March, visit rates plummet.  The floor just drops out.  I've been to popular resorts like Whitetail in early March once the weather has started warming, and I've counted more employees than guests.  On days like that, it costs a resort far more money to stay open than the revenue it brings in.  Even if another cold wave comes in, the damage has been done -- most skier's brains switch to springtime activities and they hang up the skis and snowboards.  I get very depressed when I look at resort webcams in mid- to late-March and see plenty of snow left on the slopes after the resorts have closed up shop for the season, but I completely understand the economics of the decision they made and there's simply no arguing with it.  Really, there isn't.  Honestly, do you really think that resorts are making a decision to close early even while they're still continuing to make a profit?  They want to squeeze *every* *last* *penny* of profit out of their compressed seasons.  They see the numbers; they know when the cross-over point is.

Resorts which have had a banner season may stay open later as a gesture of good will to their season passholders, but they're doing it at a break-even point or a loss.  And in years like the past year, where they lost the entire beginning of the season, there's simply no way they could intentionally lose money by extending their season past a profitable point.  They have little control over weather and when the season can begin, but they can control when to end the season, and that is always a business decision.  Every resort sees their own data; we don't.

Seriously, do we need to be told the dates?   I think we have this down by now.  Snowshoe will try to open for Thanksgiving but generally won't make it.  Timberline doesn't try to open until about Dec 12, give or take, basically to build base for the holidays, and then will max out between mlk and presidents and then wind down as soon as possible.  CVR will be pretty close, mabye a little later start and later close.  Wisp will do better.  Wintgergreen, in a normal year, will surprisingly open later and close later than just about anyone outside NC.   Speaking of which, Cataloochee and Sugar will open as soon as they get 72 hours of cold in November, but will thin out during the year.  If Easter is early, Cataloochee and App will try to stay open to make it.  Snowy Luau will be like March 15 and anything after that is unplanned.  Showshoe will probably close the first weekend in April and the snow will be very good.   Whitegrass will probably have one early (nov, dec) big snow and one late big snow and be sporadic but mostly open in the usual areas during the year.  Hopefully, the valley will get the regular lake storm cycles all during January and build up a big base, but if not watch out for the slednecks.  There, I just saved you a ton of time surfing web sites.  Scott you can PM me for the address to send my check.  Speaking of Scott, unlike him, I will see the deep snow, blue skies, and thin crowds after Pres day and think now it's time to get serous about skiing this year!

Edit @TomH.  This is still south of mason dixon.  Do not make ski plans 4 weeks in advance without including plane tickets to Utah or 'Rado.  Seriously.  

TomH wrote:

Now if they could put snow blower on top of that pole they put in the middle of white lightening last year I will be a 100 percent happy season passholder

jeebus, that would be even more of a danger, must be why i always ski on the edges of that slope anyway.  i still miss the trees.  

Why not add a little XC ski touring to your repetoire and free your mind from having to base all skiing plans and decisions around whether or not a big mechanical lift is running?  Like when we get dumped on this year in mid november! :)

Looks like the can is getting kicked down the road (to March 2017):

http://www.psc.state.wv.us/scripts/WebDocket/ViewDocument.cfm?CaseActivityID=459377

ubu wrote:

Looks like the can is getting kicked down the road (to March 2017):

http://www.psc.state.wv.us/scripts/WebDocket/ViewDocument.cfm?CaseActivityID=459377

March 30 has come and gone... any news here?

Here

http://www.psc.state.wv.us/scripts/WebDocket/ViewDocument.cfm?CaseActivityID=468471&NotType=%27WebDocket%27

http://www.psc.state.wv.us/scripts/WebDocket/ViewDocument.cfm?CaseActivityID=468471&NotType=%27WebDocket%27

So....Timberline has to pay back like $11k / month for the foreseeable future and fix some old water meters?  That's it i guess?

I cannot believe that I just read most of the agreement between TL and those that were suing TL. 

I think I saw that TL had new financing and would make a single payment for the $300K+ that is owed.  Anybody know the source of the new financing and does it include enough new cash for TL to make badly needed improvements to the TL ski operation to include snowmaking and lifts?!  Yes, without a single catch up payment TL will need to pay $11K monthly for past unpaid utility bills and also must pay all current bills on time.  This would remove the source of repurposed income that essentially appears to have kept TL afloat in the recent past.  

What a goat rope!!!

Anybody know more?!

Amazing no one ended up in prison; improperly taking funds out of a utility is pretty serious business. Don't expect any major changes, Hope for a 200 inch snow year; it is what has bailed them out in the past.

 This would remove the source of repurposed income that essentially appears to have kept TL afloat in the recent past.  

CVPSD was alarmed when it reviewed the Staff report, showing that revenue was coming to TFSU from its customers, but not being paid to CVPSD and instead, going out to affiliates of TFSU. Mr. Metzger believes the record showed approximately $368,000 being transferred from TFSU to its affiliates. Additionally, the affiliates were not paying TFSU for utility services and owed TFSU approximately $104,000. (Tr. 73). 

Reviewing TFSU banking records, Mr. Herz acknowledged that on the January 30 statement from 2015, that there was an internet transfer from TFSU’s business checking on January 30 in the amount of $lS,000 that was transferred to an account of TFSRM. (Tr. 121). On March 26,2016, check number 7495 was drawn on a TFSU account payable in the amount of $40,000 to TFSRM. (Tr. 122). Mr. Herz could not explain the particulars of the $40,000 transfer. (Tr. 122). Mr. Herz could not explain the transfer of money memorialized by check number 7514 dated August 27,201 5 , drawn on a TFSU account payable to TFSRM in the amount of $20,000. (Tr. 123). Mr. Herz could not explain the transfer made via check 7535 on TFSU’s account dated May 15, 2015, payable to TFSRM in the amount of $30,000. Mr. Herz could not explain the internet transfer of $10,000 from a TFSU account to a TFSRM account made on June 26, 2015. (Tr. 123). He also could not explain the internet transfer made on July 31, 2015, o f $30,000 from TFSU to TFSRM. (Tr. 124). He was also unable to explain the transfer of $20,000 on August 21,2015, from TFSU to TFSRM, nor was he able to explain the internet transfer dated August 26, 2015, in the amount of $5,000 from TFSU to TFSRM. (Tr. 124, 125). Also unexplained was the September 18, 2015, internet transfer of $10,000 from TFSU to TFSRM. (Tr. 125). Mr. Herz could not explain the $5,000 internet transfer from TFSU to TFSRM made on December 20,2015, nor could the December 11,2015, internet transfcr from TFSU to TFSRM in the amount of $20,000 be explained. (Tr. 126, 127). Mr. Herz had no explanation for the December 21, 2015, internet transfer from TFSU to TFSRM in the amount of $5,000 or the second transfer on the same date in an additional amount of $10,000. The February 16, 2016, $20,000transferfromtheutilitytoTFSRMalsoremainedunexplained. (Tr.127). 

...

Mr. Herz believes that one would have to hire a forensic accountant to examine the flow of cash from TFSU to TFSRM if one wanted to identify the specific use of proceeds of each of the transfers. (Tr. 139). Mr. Herz is open to discussing how assurances could be made to CVPSD and the Commission that funds would not be improperly transferred from TFSU to TFSRM in the future. (Tr. 140). Mr. Herz is working on getting financing to refinance the resort. (Tr. 141). Mr. Herz assured CVPSD that if he runs into additional problems in paying its bills, he will contact CVPSD and try to talk about how the issue can be resolved. (Tr. 141). 

CVPSD =  Canaan Valley Public Service District, a public utility

TFSU = Timberline Four Seasons Utilities

TFSRM = Timberline Four Seasons Resort Management, Inc.

As a reminder, DCSki's Rules of Conduct state that "posting negative comments about an individual is unacceptable."  (I just removed a post that violated this rule.)

Using a utility payment escrow as a slush fund is pretty shocking.  Gotta wonder if they've been keeping up with their liability and property insurance as well..

crgildart wrote:

Using a utility payment escrow as a slush fund is pretty shocking.  Gotta wonder if they've been keeping up with their liability and property insurance as well..

Wanted to give this thread a bump to see if anyone knows whats going on?  Drove by timberline today, a Saturday. Not a sign of life...the doors are locked up and the 4 season resort is closed like a ghost town, busted up equipment in the parking lot, furniture and trash scattered across the decks, scabbed together grooming machines with shattered windows and "sell tline" stickers on them, tarps covering some of the buildings to keep weather out, etc. Reports are the power is still cut off. The company who was using their horse stables has moved out. Looked on their facebook and no mention of anything going on except for some weird water testing post and a strange job posting. The website was last updated months ago. I can't imagine ski lift and other critical infrastructure maintenance and inspections work wouldn't have had to start by now if they plan on getting that place back in any kind of working condition for ski season. Are they going to finally sell tline or just going to let the place completely waste away or are they seriously planning on trying to half ass open for the winter like last year? .

bonefish wrote:

Wanted to give this thread a bump to see if anyone knows whats going on?  Drove by timberline today, a Saturday. Not a sign of life...the doors are locked up and the 4 season resort is closed like a ghost town, busted up equipment in the parking lot, furniture and trash scattered across the decks, scabbed together grooming machines with shattered windows and "sell tline" stickers on them, tarps covering some of the buildings to keep weather out, etc. Reports are the power is still cut off. The company who was using their horse stables has moved out. Looked on their facebook and no mention of anything going on except for some weird water testing post and a strange job posting. The website was last updated months ago. I can't imagine ski lift and other critical infrastructure maintenance and inspections work wouldn't have had to start by now if they plan on getting that place back in any kind of working condition for ski season. Are they going to finally sell tline or just going to let the place completely waste away or are they seriously planning on trying to half ass open for the winter like last year? .

Wow, the vandalism seems pretty lame.  Talk about making things worse for your cause.. whoever did that isn't making the business more attractive to potential suitors.  As for the rest of the "to do" list, how are competitors like Canan doing with regard to that critical path towards the 18-19 season?  Is their golf course open and busy?  Serious question.. I'm not up in that area so I have no idea..

I don't think it's vandalism. Just looks like it did the day they closed for ski season, run down and patched together...looks like as soon as the lifts closed everyone just dropped everything where they were standing and abandoned the resort. Canaan  seems to be working on maintenance for ski season and summer activities at both state parks are getting good use when I've been there. The businesses in Davis and Thomas seem to be booming. Local Canaan Valley realtors are reporting record summer  numbers. Timberline appears to be the only square peg. 

bonefish wrote:

I don't think it's vandalism. Just looks like it did the day they closed for ski season, run down and patched together...looks like as soon as the lifts closed everyone just dropped everything where they were standing and abandoned the resort. Canaan  seems to be working on maintenance for ski season and summer activities at both state parks are getting good use when I've been there. The businesses in Davis and Thomas seem to be booming. Local Canaan Valley realtors are reporting record summer  numbers. Timberline appears to be the only square peg. 

grooming machines with shattered windows and “sell tline” stickers on them,

This isn't vandalsim?  So the owners did that?? 

I could be wrong but I thought I saw the shattered glass was there all last ski season to. I just assumed it happened when they were grooming and just never got fixed. But you could be correct.

If smoeone would just buy Timberline and invest some money in upgrades to lifts, snowmaking and the lodge it could be one of the best resorts in mid-Atlantic.   Great location in Canaan Valley, lots of natural snow (for the mid-Atlantic), some of the best natural terrain, so many housing options for groups/families that are not very expensive, fairly accessible to DC, Baltimore, Richmond, etc. and not overrun with weekend day trippers as many resorts are.   We last went there two and a half years ago in late February when it snowed about a foot, but it was right after the main lift had broken so they only had one lift open and only about half the mountain (and that was far better than the situation from last year) and was one of our biggest disappointments as we had a big family group together for the first time when everyone could ski.   We ended up skiing jsut 1/2 day at Timberline and the rest of the weekend at Canaan Valley.     Just hope that someone or some company will jump in soon and save Timberline from this slow path of destruction it has been on.  

mdr227 wrote:

If smoeone would just buy Timberline and invest some money in upgrades to lifts, snowmaking and the lodge it could be one of the best resorts in mid-Atlantic.   Great location in Canaan Valley, lots of natural snow (for the mid-Atlantic), some of the best natural terrain, so many housing options for groups/families that are not very expensive, fairly accessible to DC, Baltimore, Richmond, etc. and not overrun with weekend day trippers as many resorts are.  

Ahh but the uncertainty with regard to infrastructure and snow making is a big reason why it's hardly ever booked solid and thus available at such bargain rates, especially with regard to slopeside housing.  New lifts and state of the art snow making and suddenly all those will be in much higher demand and TL4s becomes Wintergreen West.... only selling passes that are blacked out every weekend between December and March along with all holidays and Christmas to New Years weekdays.  You can bet that would happen if everything there was top notch as it could be..

bonefish wrote:

I could be wrong but I thought I saw the shattered glass was there all last ski season to. I just assumed it happened when they were grooming and just never got fixed. But you could be correct.

Yeah, I'm sure the resort owners intentionally damaged their own equipment. I looked at their Facebook page and website and it didn't look unusual to me for the type of operation they have during summer months. . Is the resort having financial problems? Obviously. Could it be run a little better? You bet. Will they sell? Who knows. Will they get some new investors or find a line of credit? Hopefully. I don't think we need to invent negative stuff since we have real negative stuff. 

no invention...just observations driving through parking lot and knocking on the door

crgildart wrote:

mdr227 wrote:

If smoeone would just buy Timberline and invest some money in upgrades to lifts, snowmaking and the lodge it could be one of the best resorts in mid-Atlantic.   Great location in Canaan Valley, lots of natural snow (for the mid-Atlantic), some of the best natural terrain, so many housing options for groups/families that are not very expensive, fairly accessible to DC, Baltimore, Richmond, etc. and not overrun with weekend day trippers as many resorts are.  

Ahh but the uncertainty with regard to infrastructure and snow making is a big reason why it's hardly ever booked solid and thus available at such bargain rates, especially with regard to slopeside housing.  New lifts and state of the art snow making and suddenly all those will be in much higher demand and TL4s becomes Wintergreen West.... only selling passes that are blacked out every weekend between December and March along with all holidays and Christmas to New Years weekdays.  You can bet that would happen if everything there was top notch as it could be..

Right now I would glady pay a little more to have a more reliable place to visit.  You know its not good when the cross country place is more reliable.  It doesn't sound like anyone here really knows what is going on, so we have to sit and wait.  And I can tell you TL will never be Wintergreen West as Charlottesville and Richmond are just too far away.  [Little Charlottesville which is now on the list of top 10 places for income disparity]

For what it is worth, a swath of grass was recently mowed around the lodge below Silver Queen. That swath includes the area in front of the Northwoods B development””where the defunct vollyball area used to be. I have been up to Timberline three times this summer. Asside from rumors and visible issues (unmowed grass and lack of elecrtricity in the lodge) and the utilities issue, no one knows what’s going on or why. House rentals on the mountain seem strong and there’s been lot of activity in Davis. Hiking, mountain biking, and golfing continues. I have one more year left on an awesome pass. Can’t wait to ski my favorite small mountain in the USA.

It doesn’t sound like anyone here really knows what is going on, so we have to sit and wait

I can tell you what will happen.  Some mysterious postings about the season will happen in Novemeber on their facebook page.  They will open between Christmas and New Years with service to the mid station.  Around Presidents days they will finally have more than 50% of the mountain open.  At this point they will stop making snow.  Two weeks later the mountain will be open to the midstation.  They will close for all but the weekend while the big March snows start piling up.  They will close for the year approximately 2-4 weeks before they should because they have to save snow for the snow mobiles, and thye had less patronage than White Grass.

After that people here will speculate.  They will be sued for messing up.  They will remove all negative social media posts.  Three people here will continue to defend Fred and Company.  I will continue to go to Snowshoe because I at least know they try. 

It's been happening like this every year for at least the last 5.  I don't see why this year would be different.

Did a driveby at TL myself just recently and it was depressing...then drove up to Wisp and enjoyed some on Mtn fun...Mtn bikers..water fun on top of the Mtn..kids and adults spending money and having fun..Coaster was a blast!....14 bucks a run....theres gold in them hills!!...comon...get it together!!

AndyGene wrote:

It doesn’t sound like anyone here really knows what is going on, so we have to sit and wait

...

It's been happening like this every year for at least the last 5.  I don't see why this year would be different.

So you're an optimist.

snowsmith wrote:

bonefish wrote:

I could be wrong but I thought I saw the shattered glass was there all last ski season to. I just assumed it happened when they were grooming and just never got fixed. But you could be correct.

Yeah, I'm sure the resort owners intentionally damaged their own equipment. I looked at their Facebook page and website and it didn't look unusual to me for the type of operation they have during summer months. . Is the resort having financial problems? Obviously. Could it be run a little better? You bet. Will they sell? Who knows. Will they get some new investors or find a line of credit? Hopefully. I don't think we need to invent negative stuff since we have real negative stuff. 

Speaking factually, this summer is clearly VERY different than recent past summers. Here is a probably incomplete list of summer activities that Timberline had in just the past three years, none of which are happening this year:

Mountain biking

Mountain bike races

Chairlift rides

Bicycle shop

Pub operation

Food and beverage service

Live music

Beer and music festival

Now maybe none of these were ever big moneymakers for Timberline, but pretty much every other resort in the region has ample summer activities and believes it is in their business interest to do so.  Wisp, Snowshoe, Wintergreen, Massanutten, Bryce, etc etc.  The fact that Timberline can't even manage to do anything this summer has got to mean something.  And again, these are facts not speculation.

There is an updated document submitted by the CVPSD to the WV Public Service Commission in the case titled "Staff's Petition to the Commission to Order a General Investigation of Timberline Four Seasons Utilities, Inc"

http://www.psc.state.wv.us/scripts/WebDocket/ViewDocument.cfm?CaseActivityID=501285&NotType=%27WebDocket%27

Executive summary - Timberline Utilities paid CVPSD for sewer service through the June 1st 2018 bill at $27,900/month.  The July 1 bill was paid with a check without money in the bank, and remains unpaid.

"On Tuesday, July 3 1,201 8, [... TFSU ... ] delivered a check from TFSU ...drawn on Grant Coun~ Bank and payable to CVPSD in the amount of $27,917.50 to ... operator for CVPSD, as the payment for the July 1,2018, bill. However, [TFSU] instructed ... not to deposit the check until August 1,2018, when funds would be available in the TFSUI account.  ...  On August 3,2018, ... , Board Member for CVPSD, again checked with &e Grant County Bank to see if sufficient funds were in the account of TFSUI to honor the check, and again the teller advised that there were insu~ci~nt finds to honor the check. Hence, the regular monthly bill for July, 201 8, has not been paid and the same is still delinquent as of the date of this pleading. " (names redacted)

pagamony wrote:

crgildart wrote:

mdr227 wrote:

If smoeone would just buy Timberline and invest some money in upgrades to lifts, snowmaking and the lodge it could be one of the best resorts in mid-Atlantic.   Great location in Canaan Valley, lots of natural snow (for the mid-Atlantic), some of the best natural terrain, so many housing options for groups/families that are not very expensive, fairly accessible to DC, Baltimore, Richmond, etc. and not overrun with weekend day trippers as many resorts are.  

Ahh but the uncertainty with regard to infrastructure and snow making is a big reason why it's hardly ever booked solid and thus available at such bargain rates, especially with regard to slopeside housing.  New lifts and state of the art snow making and suddenly all those will be in much higher demand and TL4s becomes Wintergreen West.... only selling passes that are blacked out every weekend between December and March along with all holidays and Christmas to New Years weekdays.  You can bet that would happen if everything there was top notch as it could be..

Right now I would glady pay a little more to have a more reliable place to visit.  You know its not good when the cross country place is more reliable.  It doesn't sound like anyone here really knows what is going on, so we have to sit and wait.  And I can tell you TL will never be Wintergreen West as Charlottesville and Richmond are just too far away.  [Little Charlottesville which is now on the list of top 10 places for income disparity]

 

OK maybe not "Wintergreen West"  How about "Snowshoe North??"  Snowshoe is every bit as isolated geographically, or was before they upped their game with regard to infrastructure..

I'm sure glad I bought an Ikon Pass for this coming season. Did you know it includes unlimited, no blackout skiing at Snowshoe?

why was my post deleted?

Your post included unsubstantiated accusations as well as profanity, which is in violation of DCSki's Terms of Use.  I've repeatedly advised readers that DCSki is not the forum to spread these kinds of unverifiable rumors, and I no longer have patience for it.

I appreciate your work on this site, but BS! I used the word "ass" as in "half-ass". Hardly profanity. I didn't make any accusations. They were indeed facts. No rumors. Read the PSC documents or take a trip to the resort yourself. This is a relevant ski topic with the winter approaching. 

Here's the deal.  DCSki is my house.  You're a guest in my house.  I get to set the house rules: if I ask guests to please take their shoes off when they enter my house, it's a common courtesy to do so.  You don't have to visit my house and you don't have to like my rules.  But if you do visit, and I ask you to please take your shoes off, it's not very polite to then yell at me and say you should be able to wear shoes in my house, which is essentially what your reply is saying.

I have a long list of rumors that people have anonymously shared with me that they swore up and down were true, and when I spent my time chasing down the facts, I found they were anywhere from mildly to wildly inaccurate.  It's not how I want to spend my time.  DCSki is a place for skiers and snowboarders to share their passion and tips for our favorite sport, and sure, to provide constructive feedback to local resorts when warranted.  Anyone can start their own web site and post what they like.  But here, if I say a post crossed a line, I'd ask that people respect that.

jimmy wrote:

I'm sure glad I bought an Ikon Pass for this coming season. Did you know it includes unlimited, no blackout skiing at Snowshoe?

Helps to be in the middle of nowhere. Try to find a place less than 100 miles from a major east coast metro area without blackout dates in their pass... or that takes any multi state multi resort pass..

Scott wrote:

Here's the deal.  DCSki is my house.  You're a guest in my house.  I get to set the house rules: if I ask guests to please take their shoes off when they enter my house, it's a common courtesy to do so.  You don't have to visit my house and you don't have to like my rules.  But if you do visit, and I ask you to please take your shoes off, it's not very polite to then yell at me and say you should be able to wear shoes in my house, which is essentially what your reply is saying.

MAGA...Build that wall!....

I was hoping for something more like a "community" with "community standards" than "Scott's House" with "Scott's Rules".  OK..

crgildart wrote:

I was hoping for something more like a "community" with "community standards" than "Scott's House" with "Scott's Rules".  OK..

Apparently the community standards haven't been clear enough, so I decided to try an analogy.  Seriously, if a few of you are going to continue being snarky and rude, please find another venue.  I'm not pouring my time and money into this site to be disrespected.  I have enough stress in my life already right now; I certainly don't need DCSki causing more stress.

Scott, I think some folks don't get that you could be held accountable for some of the more scandalous stuff. But look at the bright side, Mountain Masher has left us and no one is preaching pro or anti climate change rants.🤡

I honestly didn’t think the word “half-@$$” as in “could be a half-@$$ opening” was profanity. I wasn’t even wearing shoes when I wrote that post”¦.I even had on clean socks(that is a joke to lighten the mood not intended as snarky or rude). Now understood what is considered profanity. Have the owners of timberline contacted dc ski’s administrators about timberline being discussed on this forum? I assume that posting factual events as they unfold that are relevant to the title of this thread is not considered wearing ski boots on the oriental carpets?

Scott wrote:

crgildart wrote:

I was hoping for something more like a "community" with "community standards" than "Scott's House" with "Scott's Rules".  OK..

Apparently the community standards haven't been clear enough, so I decided to try an analogy.  Seriously, if a few of you are going to continue being snarky and rude, please find another venue.  I'm not pouring my time and money into this site to be disrespected.  I have enough stress in my life already right now; I certainly don't need DCSki causing more stress.

I don't have a problem with any of the standards or expectations... although the goal posts do seem to move week to week.  i get it.  I'm an admin of a college football fan group with over 30K members, almost half of them active.  Talk about trash pick ups and ban hammers hahaha.. I'm also a moderator on some smaller forums which, like this, used to be a lot more active but still have a few core members hanging around.. some don't always get along.

I suggest you try to take a step back, relax a little and let bygones be bygones from time to time.  If the meager level of debate and opinion posts are stressing you out that much perhaps pull the plug because it shouldn't..

Scott

I think you do a great job herding the snocats, civil discourse is hard to find online. some are not happy without knocking something. me I just want to ski Doc's with LHC

If the meager level of debate and opinion posts are stressing you out that much perhaps pull the plug because it shouldn't..

Or, perhaps pull a topic when it gets a little too lively.

And, thanks Scott, for what you do.

Denis wrote:

If the meager level of debate and opinion posts are stressing you out that much perhaps pull the plug because it shouldn't..

Or, perhaps pull a topic when it gets a little too lively.

And, thanks Scott, for what you do.

Thanks.  In the instances where I intervene (which is not often -- how often do you see me chime in here?), I am taking action to protect posters from charges of slander.  Unfortunately, this has several side effects: (a) even though I'm protecting the person who posted the statement (who often doesn't understand what libel is, and mistakenly thinks they're anonymous and can post whatever they want without recourse), they get upset with me; (b) I can't explain the problematic statement to the rest of the community because that would require repeating it; (c) it looks like I have thin skin, am over-reacting, or moving goal posts when, in fact, I'm taking reasonable and appropriate action to ensure that potentially inaccurate information is not spread through this forum.

People come to the site with varying agendas, and rumors that might be rooted in truth tend to snowball and be exagerrated to serve one's own interests.  As one example, a few years ago someone reported that a particular resort had not paid their state taxes.  I spent my own time verifying with the state that the resort was completely up to date on their tax payments; the person reporting that was completely inaccurate.  It doesn't mean that the resort wasn't having financial challenges, but with those kinds of accusations, you can't just make stuff up, or pass along things "you've heard."  That type of statement was fairly easy to verify (it was either true, or not true), but many of these statements are in a gray area where it's hard to prove or disprove them.  And when a statement is potentially damaging, that increases the importance of being accurate.

To be clear, I've never been concerned with people sharing opinions about topics DCSki covers, even if those opinions are harsh.  Civil debate is what makes things interesting!  But there is a big -- if sometimes subtle -- difference between sharing a negative opinion and making a potentially slanderous statement.  I have a responsibility to intervene when a statement appears to cross that line, even if the poster meant no harm.  It's never a decision that is made lightly.

Perhaps the best thing is for the community to simply avoid discussing a particular resort, at least until any drama recedes into the distance.  That's an extreme measure and isn't my first choice, but this seems to be a perpetual problem and I've grown tired of having to spend time on it -- that's time I don't have to contribute to other parts of the site.

wgo wrote:

Typical Vail hype, claiming the resort is galactic when they won't even be leaving the inner planets of the solar system!

How do you know for sure? Vail is hudge, I mean Elong Musk hudge. Intergalactic snowmaking should be very efficient. I hear the spring bonefishing is also great.

jimmy wrote:

wgo wrote:

Typical Vail hype, claiming the resort is galactic when they won't even be leaving the inner planets of the solar system!

How do you know for sure? Vail is hudge, I mean Elong Musk hudge. Intergalactic snowmaking should be very efficient. I hear the spring bonefishing is also great.

White Grass will be getting state of the art powder snowmaking at some point this winter also, and hopefully often. Rdog was already out mowing the slopes this past weekend in suns out, guns out mode, so we can make those fall turns on 6" of snow! Braap braap!

At the risk of being too snarky, I will share what I see with the ski area. I have been a property owner for almost 24 years and live full time in the valley.  I can attest to my comments, under oath, if necessary..  First of all, I love the mountasin.  I have over half a million investerd here which has deterrioated to less than half of that due to market uncertianties due to the mountain's status.  I have worked at the mountain in the ski school as well as with the now defunct courtsey patrol.  My son won the WV governor's cup in 2000 and his remains are on his favorite parts of the mountian. This is home to my family.  However, the management is the most incompentent group of individuals I have ever witnessed.  They have removed or driven off those who could make this resort a viable  entity.  A shame. If they were to just ask, many of us would offer our help and use our expertise to correct the wrongs and make their life much easier.  Instead we live in uncertaintity of the fate of a mountain we love. I ask why?  Is it ego?  Is it something else?  There are many of us capable of lending a helping hand but we've been shut out.  I know a lot more but won't go there as a show of respect.  So Timberline, where are we going?  

Kim,

Well said, from your heart, and from the hearts of many Mid-A skiers! 

TL: What is the plan?  And may it succeed!!

A quick look at TImerberline's facebook page -- upcomng events section: "Timberline Four Seasons Resort does not have any upcoming events.

A quick look at TImerberline's facebook page -- upcomng events section: "Timberline Four Seasons Resort does not have any upcoming events.

Thanks Bob

Bob do you have a 'timberline'-esque resort out there in Colorado ?

bob wrote:

A quick look at TImerberline's facebook page -- upcomng events section: "Timberline Four Seasons Resort does not have any upcoming events.

Give them a call and see how much season passes are. 

Give them a call to book your group ski weekend.

Give them a call and inquire about reserving a room at the hotel.

I called both the 800 # and the 304 # listed on their website.  Both numbers are inoperable...in other words the numbers do not work.  

If Timerline does not open this Winter (and one could certainly assume that given all I've read on this post) I wonder what that will do for Canaan Valley's business this Winter.   They could really make out by attracting those customers that otherwise would have gone to Timberline or it could be that people start to avoid the Valley altogether since there would only be one ski resort there and not two open.   We always tried to do a day at each on our trips there.     

Probably best not to speculate.

Jimmy, we going to get together for some turns at SS this year? it's been awhile - probably 5 years ago skiing pow at TL back in the good ol days.

It has been quite a while W. I gots a pass that works at Snowshoe so i do hope to get done there some this winter. How often do you get there? I lobbied a year or two ago to hold the DCSki gathering there but got out voted. 

pagamony wrote:

Bob do you have a 'timberline'-esque resort out there in Colorado ?

Sure do -- Bethoud Pass  -- notrh of I-70 on route 40 going to Winter PArk..

It went out of business maybe 8-10 years ago.

bob wrote:

pagamony wrote:

Bob do you have a 'timberline'-esque resort out there in Colorado ?

Sure do -- Bethoud Pass  -- notrh of I-70 on route 40 going to Winter PArk..

 

It went out of business maybe 8-10 years ago.

FROM WIKIPEDIA Once home to the now-defunct Berthoud Pass Ski Area, the pass is a destination for local backcountry skiers, snowboarders, and snowshoers due to its abundance of steep and challenging terrain and plentiful snow averaging 500 inches annually. The twisting road on both sides of the pass also makes "car shuttles" possible, eliminating the need for skiers and snowboarders to hike back to the top of the pass after each run.

The ski resort was closed in 2002 due to financial problems caused by lack of water and sewage at the top of the pass. In 2003 the lifts were taken down, while some people continued to ski using snowcats for lift transportation. In 2005 the Colorado DOT began using a fund to restore the area to its natural state. First on the list was the demolition of the historic lodge.

I'd say watch the rumors like Scott says, but I doubt the injured parties have enough revenue to pay their lawyer to send Scott a C&D much less file an actual lawsuit against anyone..

"West Virginia DOT began using a fund to restore the Timberline area to its natural state. First on the list was the demolition of the old lodge."...(no no...not happening yet...)

My worse Nightmare...specially since nobody here gave a hoot about MPC getting up and running....since we allready had to great ski areas in the Valley.......Hows that workin out for ya?.....17 years later.....I knew what was up....sickening....

I really feel for the employees and homeowners during these uncertain times.  It's cliche to hate on the big corporate resorts but they stay open, employ many folks and that helps the home values stay in the black.

What good is "mountain vibe" when peeps are collecting unemployment, resorts are falling apart and home values are plummeting.  I may be a Snowshoe "homer" but I grew up in WV and it pains me to see any place in the state struggle.

Hopefully TL gets an infusion of cash, rights the ship and everybody wins.

snapdragon wrote:

I called both the 800 # and the 304 # listed on their website.  Both numbers are inoperable...in other words the numbers do not work.  

I skied WinterPlace for the first time last season.  It was a little better than I expected..  Kinda like TL but smaller, but bigger than Appalachian.  Closer to me and mostly highway driving.  Definitely in play..

Many moons ago, I took my kids to WP several times, it was great.   You can just decide to drive up on a Friday, get a room in Beckley, and get first row parking the next morning.  Good variety of trails.  The first two times we went it snowed over 6".  They do run the place well.

jimmy wrote:

bob wrote:

pagamony wrote:

Bob do you have a 'timberline'-esque resort out there in Colorado ?

Sure do -- Bethoud Pass  -- notrh of I-70 on route 40 going to Winter PArk..

 

It went out of business maybe 8-10 years ago.

FROM WIKIPEDIA Once home to the now-defunct Berthoud Pass Ski Area, the pass is a destination for local backcountry skiers, snowboarders, and snowshoers due to its abundance of steep and challenging terrain and plentiful snow averaging 500 inches annually. The twisting road on both sides of the pass also makes "car shuttles" possible, eliminating the need for skiers and snowboarders to hike back to the top of the pass after each run.

The ski resort was closed in 2002 due to financial problems caused by lack of water and sewage at the top of the pass. In 2003 the lifts were taken down, while some people continued to ski using snowcats for lift transportation. In 2005 the Colorado DOT began using a fund to restore the area to its natural state. First on the list was the demolition of the historic lodge.

Ah yes.  I remember driving by there in summers in the 1990s and seeing the lifts.  Hell of a windy place.  Good thing the road is now improved.   This part is weird.  For a time, the ski area was known as - get this - Timberline.  This link is a good read.  An excerpt.  

"In 1987 the Garsts sold Berthoud to Timberline Mountain Inc., which renamed the area Timberline. Under new ownership there was a 1,200-acre terrain expansion, as well as tragedy. During Timberline's first year of operation, the double-seated chair lift malfunctioned and injured a skier, prompting the Colorado Tramway Board to shut down the lift. The ensuing loss of revenue spelled the first real financial crisis for Berthoud, and Timberline Mountain filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection."

crgildart wrote:

I skied WinterPlace for the first time last season.  It was a little better than I expected..  Kinda like TL but smaller, but bigger than Appalachian.  Closer to me and mostly highway driving.  Definitely in play..

Per T-line Facebook page this morning, they will be "open for skiing on Nov. 30. It will be a year to remember".

That's pretty impressive considering they usually can't get open by Christmas.

I remember a few years ago when Fred said they would be open before thanksgiving.  That was immediately changed to december 12, which was changed a few days later to December 13.

Also already hiring some this year, which is super early from previous years. I wonder if the person will work offsite or some place else until they get the power back on and the phones reconnected. I called to get some more info, but all phone numbers are still disconnected. 

"Are your resumes ready? We are hiring full time. Competitive wages in every department. Apply in person. Drop your resume for this position off at the business office to Sherry Mauzy.
$15 per hour

Timberline is looking for an Office Assistant to be responsible for handling clerical tasks in our office. You will be handling incoming phone calls and other communications, greeting clients and visitors, as well as managing files, updating paperwork and other documents, and performing other general office clerk duties and errands.
In order for you to be selected as a candidate, you will need the ability to write clearly and be facile with word processing applications. A pleasing personality with strong communication skills is highly valued.

Responsibilities:
Handling incoming calls and other communications.

Managing filing system.

Recording information as needed.

Greeting clients and visitors as needed.

Updating paperwork, maintaining documents and word processing.

Helping organize and maintain office common areas.

Performing general office clerk duties and errands.

Organizing travel by booking accommodations and reservations needs as required.

Coordinating events as necessary.

Maintaining supply inventory.

Maintaining office equipment as needed.

Aiding with client reception as needed.

Experience as a virtual assistant.

Creating, maintaining, and entering information into databases.

Office Assistant Requirements:

High school diploma or associate’s degree.

Experience as an office assistant or in related field.

Ability to write clearly and help with word processing when necessary.

Warm personality with strong communication skills.

Ability to work well under limited supervision.

Great communication skills.

Have a valid driver license." 

One might note that all of the open positions described by Timberline on Facebook today are administrative/clerical/back office.  Nothing directly related to operation of the ski area, hotel, food and beverage, etc.

Norsk wrote:

One might note that all of the open positions described by Timberline on Facebook today are administrative/clerical/back office.  Nothing directly related to operation of the ski area, hotel, food and beverage, etc.

Those positions usually come up for hire the first few weeks of December. 

Some Timberline updates for you non-Facebookers.

A tree trimming crew stopped by after their Florence clean up to do some work. "Did 50 slope runs with these faithful machines today. They cut the grass, too.Who knew these terrific country boys read German instructions!" 

They're upgrading some pipes. "Here you see the pipes that bring water to create snow. We are increasing the size of the pumps to increase our snowmaking capacity--so EXCITING. Our homeowners asked us to fix the pumphouse roof, so our Kenny, and Philip and his men are here fresh from Wilmington hurricane relief to help with our little pumphouse roof. 88 tons of gravel coming tomorrow, and that's nice. Keep watching. More action tomorrow."

They're also hiring. I'm guessing females need not apply: "#realmenmakesnow #realmenrunthemountain" 

David

Thanks for the update. 

Blue Don 1982 wrote:

I really feel for the employees and homeowners during these uncertain times.  It's cliche to hate on the big corporate resorts but they stay open, employ many folks and that helps the home values stay in the black.

What good is "mountain vibe" when peeps are collecting unemployment, resorts are falling apart and home values are plummeting.  I may be a Snowshoe "homer" but I grew up in WV and it pains me to see any place in the state struggle.

Hopefully TL gets an infusion of cash, rights the ship and everybody wins.

  

True corporate employs folks but for 90% of those folks it's at minimum wage, which in WV is $8.75/hr, which is not enoughto live much above a poverty level if that.  What's to be understood is that a lot of folks would rather not work than get that, hence the lack of folks in the employment pool.  If you were to ask any businessman, small or large, anywhere in mountain country, they say getting employees who want to work is their largest problem.  I just had this discussion with a contractor yesterday.  It will be a problem TL will face and need to overcome, especially as undercapitalized as they are.

I hope they do make it happen.  it would be a real win for the area, Tucker County, and the state.    

Blue Don 1982 wrote:

I really feel for the employees and homeowners during these uncertain times.  It's cliche to hate on the big corporate resorts but they stay open, employ many folks and that helps the home values stay in the black.

What good is "mountain vibe" when peeps are collecting unemployment, resorts are falling apart and home values are plummeting.  I may be a Snowshoe "homer" but I grew up in WV and it pains me to see any place in the state struggle.

Hopefully TL gets an infusion of cash, rights the ship and everybody wins.

  

True corporate employs folks but for 90% of those folks it's at minimum wage, which in WV is $8.75/hr, which is not enoughto live much above a poverty level if that.  What's to be understood is that a lot of folks would rather not work than get that, hence the lack of folks in the employment pool.  If you were to ask any businessman, small or large, anywhere in mountain country, they say getting employees who want to work is their largest problem.  I just had this discussion with a contractor yesterday.  It will be a problem TL will face and need to overcome, especially as undercapitalized as they are.

I hope they do make it happen.  it would be a real win for the area, Tucker County, and the state.    

kwillg6 wrote:

Blue Don 1982 wrote:

I really feel for the employees and homeowners during these uncertain times.  It's cliche to hate on the big corporate resorts but they stay open, employ many folks and that helps the home values stay in the black.

What good is "mountain vibe" when peeps are collecting unemployment, resorts are falling apart and home values are plummeting.  I may be a Snowshoe "homer" but I grew up in WV and it pains me to see any place in the state struggle.

Hopefully TL gets an infusion of cash, rights the ship and everybody wins.

  

True corporate employs folks but for 90% of those folks it's at minimum wage, which in WV is $8.75/hr, which is not enoughto live much above a poverty level if that.  What's to be understood is that a lot of folks would rather not work than get that, hence the lack of folks in the employment pool.  If you were to ask any businessman, small or large, anywhere in mountain country, they say getting employees who want to work is their largest problem.  I just had this discussion with a contractor yesterday.  It will be a problem TL will face and need to overcome, especially as undercapitalized as they are.

I hope they do make it happen.  it would be a real win for the area, Tucker County, and the state.    

Why wouldn't they just do what every other ski resort does, and create a J-1 Visa Program? The Brazilians, Argentinians, and Chileans come up to other mid-Atlantic resorts year after year including Wintergreen, Beech, Snowshoe, etc”¦

ChmxJoe74 wrote:

Why wouldn't they just do what every other ski resort does, and create a J-1 Visa Program? The Brazilians, Argentinians, and Chileans come up to other mid-Atlantic resorts year after year including Wintergreen, Beech, Snowshoe, etc”¦

How much money and effort is required to set up a J-1 visa program?  Definitely not super simple from what I know.  Doesn't help that the current Federal administration thinks there is no reason for J-1 visas.  I know my daughter's summer camp in the NC mountains was pretty worred in 2017.  Lots of articles about the issue in Colorado that year too. 

https://www.hcn.org/articles/economy-exchange-or-exploitation-ski-towns-turn-to-foreign-students

Bold added.

" . . .

The J-1 visa is attractive to employers because it doesn’t have the same limits and requirements as the H2-B visa. The H2-B visa has tighter caps and requires businesses to advertise jobs to U.S. workers first or prove there isn’t a U.S. worker to fill the role. Employers of J-1 visa holders also don’t have to pay Social Security, Medicare, or federal and state unemployment taxes. Still, ski industry representatives say any savings from hiring J-1 workers are offset by recruitment and administration costs.

. . ."

Joe I think he is talking about a summer job. Kwillg6 and I worked for the first time at Canaan Resort Snowsports as ski instructors last winter. We both have ten years experience, Level 2 certification and love to teach people to have fun on snow. I think I was treated fairly and challenged by the Ski School Director and his management team. There were no hidden agendas, we worked hard, we were paid well (for ski instructors) and I really felt that I was appreciated by RESORT management and my students and I assure you I was treated like a professional.

Kwillg6 is right about the problems in hiring and keeping good people in “The Valley”. I hope he tells them he is not coming back next summer on the same terms as this last one. That’s how markets work. Up the ante.

kwillg6 wrote:

Blue Don 1982 wrote:

I really feel for the employees and homeowners during these uncertain times.  It's cliche to hate on the big corporate resorts but they stay open, employ many folks and that helps the home values stay in the black.

What good is "mountain vibe" when peeps are collecting unemployment, resorts are falling apart and home values are plummeting.  I may be a Snowshoe "homer" but I grew up in WV and it pains me to see any place in the state struggle.

Hopefully TL gets an infusion of cash, rights the ship and everybody wins.

  

True corporate employs folks but for 90% of those folks it's at minimum wage, which in WV is $8.75/hr, which is not enoughto live much above a poverty level if that.  What's to be understood is that a lot of folks would rather not work than get that, hence the lack of folks in the employment pool.  If you were to ask any businessman, small or large, anywhere in mountain country, they say getting employees who want to work is their largest problem.  I just had this discussion with a contractor yesterday.  It will be a problem TL will face and need to overcome, especially as undercapitalized as they are.

I hope they do make it happen.  it would be a real win for the area, Tucker County, and the state.    

Sadly it's a problem across the entire state. In these parts of WV gas/pipeline companies have problems hiring WV'ians because they either don't show up to work on a reliable basis or they can't pass a drug test. And these are jobs that are starting at 60K/yr and come with a work truck to keep all of the time for personal use. 

David wrote:

companies have problems hiring WV'ians because they either don't show up to work on a reliable basis or they can't pass a drug test. And these are jobs that are starting at 60K/yr and come with a work truck to keep all of the time for personal use. 

And that there is the elephant in many rooms these days.

camp wrote:

David wrote:

companies have problems hiring WV'ians because they either don't show up to work on a reliable basis or they can't pass a drug test. And these are jobs that are starting at 60K/yr and come with a work truck to keep all of the time for personal use. 

And that there is the elephant in many rooms these days.

It was a problem in Virginia before I left there.  Most employers relied heavily on the hispanic community for workers. I know that in the apple orchards, if it were not for the migrant workers, the fruitwould rot on the trees. 

camp wrote:

David wrote:

companies have problems hiring WV'ians because they either don't show up to work on a reliable basis or they can't pass a drug test. And these are jobs that are starting at 60K/yr and come with a work truck to keep all of the time for personal use. 

And that there is the elephant in many rooms these days.

It was a problem in Virginia before I left there.  Most employers relied heavily on the hispanic community for workers. I know that in the apple orchards, if it were not for the migrant workers, the fruitwould rot on the trees. 

camp wrote:

David wrote:

companies have problems hiring WV'ians because they either don't show up to work on a reliable basis or they can't pass a drug test. And these are jobs that are starting at 60K/yr and come with a work truck to keep all of the time for personal use. 

And that there is the elephant in many rooms these days.

It was a problem in Virginia before I left there.  Most employers relied heavily on the hispanic community for workers. I know that in the apple orchards, if it were not for the migrant workers, the fruitwould rot on the trees. 

kwillg6 wrote:

camp wrote:

David wrote:

companies have problems hiring WV'ians because they either don't show up to work on a reliable basis or they can't pass a drug test. And these are jobs that are starting at 60K/yr and come with a work truck to keep all of the time for personal use. 

And that there is the elephant in many rooms these days.

It was a problem in Virginia before I left there.  Most employers relied heavily on the hispanic community for workers. I know that in the apple orchards, if it were not for the migrant workers, the fruitwould rot on the trees. 

I, too, wish this country was still so poor that most of us had to work absolutely crummy jobs our whole lives, rather than using our wealth to enjoy more of life while others do that tedious work for us.

 

fishnski wrote:

Oh BTW..Fruit would not rot on trees...it would just cost a few cents more...Study I saw said if You paid someone 25 bucks an hour to pick lettuce instead of the ripoff wages we pay the migrants..the price for a head of lettuce would go up 10c..big deal!

Any study that claims that increasing the highest variable component of the cost of goods sold, total labor by 5 times (500%) only increases the consumer price of that good by 5 percent is completely full of shit.

Yeah but switching from seasonal migratory workers to homegrown poor folk would certainly increase efficiency, as high school kids from Ohio can for sure pick veggies faster than a crew that' been doing it for 10 years.

Migrant farm workers have bee around for a very long time. It's brutal, tedious work. The thought of high school kids doing this work is laughable.

But this site is supposed to be about skiing, not social problems although a certain poster is obsessed with expressing his partisan opinions that have little to do with skiing. Back to the subject of the WV labor force and Timberline, the area is sparsely populated and ski area jobs don't pay well, thus I am sure that it is difficult to find dependable, ambitious employees who make low wages to perform work to satisfy the whims of snobby Washingtonians. During the Kettler ownership days at Hidden Valley we used to joke that the lift operators were on parole. Since 7S took over, the quality of the lift operators has increased dramatically. Is it training or selective hiring? Not sure. But the area is more populated than the Canaan area thus a wider work force to draw from.

I have always been of the position that you get the employees you deserve.  There have been lots of highly qualified employees that have left Timberline because the current "leadership" had chased them away and not treated them right.  I am really at a loss for words on Timberline.  I really hung my hat on the new menu a couple of years ago featuring Dickinson's Salt as the managerial move that would put them over the top.  If some good old fashioned WV salt can't save them, there is no hope.

LowEnd wrote:

 I really hung my hat on the new menu a couple of years ago featuring Dickinson's Salt as the managerial move that would put them over the top.  If some good old fashioned WV salt can't save them, there is no hope.

The salt notation peaked my curiosity so I had to google it.  Turns out to be a nice story about a family biz in WV that is doing well with the natural resources WV has to offer.  http://www.jqdsalt.com/

Timberline's Facebook Post:

One of our skiers asked us what is meant by recapitalization of Timberline. Great question. Here is the answer:

Recapitalization means that a family, who is the 3 partners of Timberline put money into into the mountain from the family, not loans, and not Wall Street and not public money. As a small immigrant family business enterprise 33 years ago and new Americans, they did this because of a commitment to growing jobs in West Virginia; it was the area of the United States most in need of jobs. (The other option available at the time was in Costa Rica, thus not in keeping with the most patriotic choice for the family.) It is now, after 20 years without meaningful upgrades in snowmaking, very much time to reinvest in that core mission and snowmaking infrastructure. That investment will include aesthetic upgrades as well. Recapitalization is intensive, complex, risk averse and it takes experts to deal with the process, the investors and the resulting capital to improve your experience. We hope you enjoy the mountain this year. Thank you Joe MarraMarra for that question.
#finance
#publicfinance
#hedgefunds
#privateinvestment
#financialliteracy
#familybusiness
#wintersports
#TimberlineWV
#Multinationals
#Repositioning
#letitsnow

The previous FB post actually announced they have found an investor.  So the big question now is: who is it, and what percentage of the business was sold?  (meaning - who is really in charge?).  Will probably be revealed in the utilities filings.

Timberline Four Seasons Resort and its family of companies is announcing the full recapitalization of the mountain. It's been a long journey, and one we have all made together. Season passes will go on sale next Thursday for $499. Bear with us as we negotiate with #FirstEnergy and #MonPower a return to full electric and #Frontier phone service in the main lodge during this interim period, hire new staff, (and reward existing staff) as well as install our ski specific software and real time reporting. Homeowners whose property is listed with T4SR.com will receive 25% off of season passes for themselves and immediate family. Thank you for choosing Timberline.

RodneyBD wrote:

The previous FB post actually announced they have found an investor. 

I didn't find that part, that they have found an investor.

Not to be negative, but here goes... this sounds a lot like every other mountain that is .... you know.... "The other option available at the time was in Costa Rica... " wtf.  Is that like as a fugitive?  Is this anonymous?  Anyone else follow the saga of Saddleback the last three years?   

I will never give Fred a dime of my money, but isn’t $500 kind of steep for a season pass?

RodneyBD wrote:

The previous FB post actually announced they have found an investor. 

No, it actually said one of the 3 partner families came up with some money.  Whether that's true or not is another story, but it did not say they found a investor.

If anything is read into the post on their facebook page it would be that of the three, Doc, Rose, and Fred, that investment would be made by them into the sagging infrastructure.  That being said, Doc has 50%, Rose has 45% and Fred the remaining 5% as per the hearings of two years ago. Are Doc and Rose making additional investments into the mountain at this time?   The post was purposely ambiguous to leave the reader's mind in question.  The family recapitalization is the only avenue that makes sense given the severity of the existing debt.  It is probably the only option available as well. Time will tell.

AndyGene wrote:

I will never give Fred a dime of my money, but isn’t $500 kind of steep for a season pass?

Compared to what?  A season pass at Massanutten is $450, which pays for itself in about 7 days skiing on the weekends.  Although there is also the Special Value Pass for $235 that's good all day Sunday as well as M-F and Sat night.  Snowmaking infrastructure is expensive to buy and maintain.

marzNC wrote:

AndyGene wrote:

I will never give Fred a dime of my money, but isn’t $500 kind of steep for a season pass?

Compared to what?  A season pass at Massanutten is $450, which pays for itself in about 7 days skiing on the weekends.  Although there is also the Special Value Pass for $235 that's good all day Sunday as well as M-F and Sat night.  Snowmaking infrastructure is expensive to buy and maintain.

I will likely not spend money at timberline either, but most of the people on this forum purchased passes months ago I would imagine, Timberline is right in the middle of the range for puchases today. (I didn't realize how much of a "deal" the snowtime pass was) 

For adult unlimited passes (Several resorts have cheaper options) for ages as of today:

Snowtime resorts: $479 ($579 after halloween)

Snowshoe: $479 now

7 Springs is:$669

Wisp: $599

Canaan: $497

Sugar in NC:$780. 

marzNC wrote:

 

Compared to what?  A season pass at Massanutten is $450, which pays for itself in about 7 days skiing on the weekends.  Although there is also the Special Value Pass for $235 that's good all day Sunday as well as M-F and Sat night.  Snowmaking infrastructure is expensive to buy and maintain.

Compared to a resort that is announcing $500 Season Pass in the same paragraph where they ask for patience while they get their electricity and phones back on line and discuss recapitalization.  In addition, many people that in the past have been long time TL season pass holders have been waiting to see what happens ( I personally am in that boat). 

Compared to all those other resorts that certainly had an early purchase discount opportunity. 

Tline's early discount was when they opened up again last March after the dump.  I purchased a $300 season pass for the 2018-2019 season.  It would have cost me $210 to ski the 3 days so I bought the pass which permitted me to ski the rest of the 2017 season and the upcoming season.

snapdragon wrote:

Tline's early discount was when they opened up again last March after the dump.  I purchased a $300 season pass for the 2018-2019 season.  It would have cost me $210 to ski the 3 days so I bought the pass which permitted me to ski the rest of the 2017 season and the upcoming season.

I personally don't like feeling like I am buying a lottery ticket when I buy a season pass.

Good one!

Or when you buy a pass for what you thought would be a 12-13 week long season that ends up being only 9 weeks long.

The office person selling me the ski pass recommended I purchase a season pass as it was good for the rest of the season and next year.  That just made common sense to me.

Thebighelmet wrote:

Sounds to me that too many people feel they are entitled to cheap skiing at Timberline. Last year when timberline put their daily ticket price at $90 the public outcry was ridiculous. Why shouldn't timberline charge the market price for a day of skiing. $500 dollars for a season pass is a reasonable price. As the old saying goes, "If you give something away for cheap. You attract cheap people."

You must be new to Timberline. It is hands down the worst place I have ever skied.  Everything about it is cheap. From the snow making. To the lodge, to ski lift that derailed. They literally are so cheap that they don’t have enough money to have electric right now. 

Id gladly pay $500 if any of those things were improved. 

Thebighelmet wrote:

Sounds to me that too many people feel they are entitled to cheap skiing at Timberline. Last year when timberline put their daily ticket price at $90 the public outcry was ridiculous. Why shouldn't timberline charge the market price for a day of skiing. $500 dollars for a season pass is a reasonable price. As the old saying goes, "If you give something away for cheap. You attract cheap people."

Like Tom said, it's a $500 lottery ticket. 

$500 would be a good deal if it were the Timberline of old, that was capable of making snow and running a half decent operation. I'd gladly pay $500 for a season pass if they could get trails open and KEEP them open for all of ski season, even with a lodge that's in such disrepair, the grossest toilets I've ever seen, the slowest bar service ever, food I wouldn't feed my dog, painfully slow lifts (that break down regularly), and a complete "this is my first day at work" vibe among a good bit of the staff (minus ski school and patrol). All of that other stuff isn't as important to me and ultimately is what makes Timberline Timberline. The good skiing and great people are always what brought me back. 

I sorts feel sorry for any mid-Atlantic skiers who never hit TL on a good day. I know people like to slag on them now but back in the day the skiing really was as good as it gets locally.

A great ski area fallen on hard times. I gave my support with a 3 year pass but never got value from it. I couldn't justify the travel and expense for what they could offer. I wish them the best and hope the recapitalization works. If they get their snowmaking and lifts together, I'll show up for a few days skiing. Otherwise, I have my season pass at Laurel which has consistent snowmaking when the weather cooperates. Last year forced a very early closure. I hope we have a consistently cold winter this season. Even Seven Springs was on the brink mid February last year. Mild winters are rough on the smaller places. Big consolidations in the industry make it even tougher.  

snapdragon wrote:

Tline's early discount was when they opened up again last March after the dump.  I purchased a $300 season pass for the 2018-2019 season.  It would have cost me $210 to ski the 3 days so I bought the pass which permitted me to ski the rest of the 2017 season and the upcoming season.

That storm was sweet, well worth the $.  I got the first 4-5 runs down thru Cherry Bowl glades, which were priceless.   

SCWVA wrote:

snapdragon wrote:

Tline's early discount was when they opened up again last March after the dump.  I purchased a $300 season pass for the 2018-2019 season.  It would have cost me $210 to ski the 3 days so I bought the pass which permitted me to ski the rest of the 2017 season and the upcoming season.

That storm was sweet, well worth the $.  I got the first 4-5 runs down thru Cherry Bowl glades, which were priceless.   

I remember that week; I was skiing crotch deep on 45 deg slopes at Snowbasin. 🎃

RodneyBD wrote:

The previous FB post actually announced they have found an investor.  So the big question now is: who is it, and what percentage of the business was sold?  (meaning - who is really in charge?).  Will probably be revealed in the utilities filings.

Timberline Four Seasons Resort and its family of companies is announcing the full recapitalization of the mountain. It's been a long journey, and one we have all made together. Season passes will go on sale next Thursday for $499. Bear with us as we negotiate with #FirstEnergy and #MonPower a return to full electric and #Frontier phone service in the main lodge during this interim period, hire new staff, (and reward existing staff) as well as install our ski specific software and real time reporting. Homeowners whose property is listed with T4SR.com will receive 25% off of season passes for themselves and immediate family. Thank you for choosing Timberline.

Thursday has come and gone. No power, phones still disconnected. Web site still not updated to sell season passes. FB not updated. Season “starts” in one month.

Plus, http://www.psc.state.wv.us/scripts/WebDocket/ViewDocument.cfm?CaseActivityID=506108&NotType=%27WebDocket%27

http://www.psc.state.wv.us/scripts/WebDocket/ViewDocument.cfm?CaseActivityID=506179&NotType=%27WebDocket%27

JohnL wrote:

SCWVA wrote:

snapdragon wrote:

Tline's early discount was when they opened up again last March after the dump.  I purchased a $300 season pass for the 2018-2019 season.  It would have cost me $210 to ski the 3 days so I bought the pass which permitted me to ski the rest of the 2017 season and the upcoming season.

That storm was sweet, well worth the $.  I got the first 4-5 runs down thru Cherry Bowl glades, which were priceless.   

I remember that week; I was skiing crotch deep on 45 deg slopes at Snowbasin. 🎃

For the record, SCWVA has spammed me repeatedly over the years for his powbdays in The Valley when I’ve been out West. Payback.

JohnL wrote:

RodneyBD wrote:

The previous FB post actually announced they have found an investor.  So the big question now is: who is it, and what percentage of the business was sold?  (meaning - who is really in charge?).  Will probably be revealed in the utilities filings.

Timberline Four Seasons Resort and its family of companies is announcing the full recapitalization of the mountain. It's been a long journey, and one we have all made together. Season passes will go on sale next Thursday for $499. Bear with us as we negotiate with #FirstEnergy and #MonPower a return to full electric and #Frontier phone service in the main lodge during this interim period, hire new staff, (and reward existing staff) as well as install our ski specific software and real time reporting. Homeowners whose property is listed with T4SR.com will receive 25% off of season passes for themselves and immediate family. Thank you for choosing Timberline.

Thursday has come and gone. No power, phones still disconnected. Web site still not updated to sell season passes. FB not updated. Season “starts” in one month.

Plus, http://www.psc.state.wv.us/scripts/WebDocket/ViewDocument.cfm?CaseActivityID=506108&NotType=%27WebDocket%27

http://www.psc.state.wv.us/scripts/WebDocket/ViewDocument.cfm?CaseActivityID=506179&NotType=%27WebDocket%27

Thanks for the updated PSC and ALJ information. 

Note to PSC:  It's Herz, not Hertz.  Sloppy.  He probably won't appear because..... "that's not me".

yellowsnow wrote:

Note to PSC:  It's Herz, not Hertz.  Sloppy.  He probably won't appear because..... "that's not me".

Or he'll show up in Charlestown.

Well, since Timberline Utilities seems to be officially abandoned based on the "no operator" status noted by the WV Bureau of Public Health in their Boil Water notice that just went out to customers today, I'm guessing receivership is the next step whether Fred shows up in Charlestown or not.

I got the boil water notice not from T4SRU  but from a friend.  This is fitting.  Theirt hearing where not only Fred but Doc and Rose are required to appear is tomorrow.  They had to do a boil water memo out because either their help was either fired, quit,or just didn't show up. Thyey are suppose to have two of them for this exact reason. I have to boil water but Fred and Tracy do not have to because they don't  live under timberline utilities.   Let the investigators do their job and I hope Orange is a fevorite color.  They have done more harm to the valley than can be imagined.   

kwillg6 wrote:

I got the boil water notice not from T4SRU  but from a friend.  This is fitting.  Theirt hearing where not only Fred but Doc and Rose are required to appear is tomorrow.  They had to do a boil water memo out because either their help was either fired, quit,or just didn't show up. Thyey are suppose to have two of them for this exact reason. I have to boil water but Fred and Tracy do not have to because they don't  live under timberline utilities.   Let the investigators do their job and I hope Orange is a fevorite color.  They have done more harm to the valley than can be imagined.   

What an absolute mess. It’s one thing to screw up the operation of a ski area, but when you mess up the operation of a utility which affects heath and safety, that is at another level. You can always ski at another area, but you are stuck with who provides water to your faucet. 

End has to be near on this utility fiasco - don’t see how they escape being ordered to pay 80k ASAP. And appears they have effectively abandoned the utility. And with all the state police/sheriff activity in The Valley the past week, I don’t see how they won’t be held accountable for the payment.

Carpetbaggers from Philly

What was the state police/sheriff activity in the Valley this past week all about?

My understanding is that they had brought "paperwork" to give to the owners of the utility

...well, it's 9:30 am, October 30, 2018.....

yellowsnow wrote:

...well, it's 9:30 am, October 30, 2018.....

And the results are in. Thankfully the situation has finally been taken seriously. Doesn't bode well for anyone involved when they spent months receiving payments (1000's of dollars) from customers but not giving a penny of that money to the PSD. Where did it go? 

From Timberline Realty's Facebook page about 1 hour ago. 

"In the interest of the public the West Virginia Public Service Commission will issue an order by Friday that the Canaan Valley Public Service District filed for interim relief for outstanding payments owed to the Canaan Valley Public Service District. The Timberline utility does not presently have enough money to operate due to a lack of a Rule 42 rate increase allowing it sufficient funds to operate having not filed for increases each 18 to 24 months under previous management. Timberline Four Seasons Utilities is agreeable to a sweep of its accounts beginning November 17 for $8000, November 25 for $8000 and November 30th for $11,900 until back payments are finished, in addition to the current monthly obligation of $27,917.50 also to be withdrawn on the 30th of each month beginning in November for 3 months. On behalf of Timberline Four Seasons Utilities Fred Herz has agreed to the Canaan Valley Public Service District's review of its accounts both at its former bank, Grant County Bank and its new account at its primary bank First United My Bank.The spirit of the meeting was cordial and collegial in the spirit of interdependence making clear a commitment to continue to provide both clean water and sewer to the public, the residents, and tourists and guests who enjoy the Canaan Valley area.
#cleanwater
#WVPSD"

David, “Results are in”!??

1. Does this satisfy the home owners?  Will their water be potable?

2. What does it mean for the ski area?  Their statement sure does not sound like they are rolling in new recapitalization funds; will they get power and water turned on for their facilities in order to even think about operating?

3.  Any idea after today’s decision whether TL has the funds to operate/improve the snowmaking and lifts. Or is what we got last year as good as we will get, if that?

I am not looking for speculation or guesses, just want facts that better explain today’s actions, and their impact on TL’s future!

MorganB

aka The Colonel

The Colonel wrote:

David, “Results are in”!??

1. Does this satisfy the home owners?  Will their water be potable?

2. What does it mean for the ski area?  Their statement sure does not sound like they are rolling in new recapitalization funds; will they get power and water turned on for their facilities in order to even think about operating?

3.  Any idea after today’s decision whether TL has the funds to operate/improve the snowmaking and lifts. Or is what we got last year as good as we will get, if that?

I am not looking for speculation or guesses, just want facts that better explain today’s actions, and their impact on TL’s future!

 

MorganB

aka The Colonel

If they miss a season, it will be the effective end of Timberline.

The Colonel wrote:

David, “Results are in”!??

1. Does this satisfy the home owners?  Will their water be potable?

2. What does it mean for the ski area?  Their statement sure does not sound like they are rolling in new recapitalization funds; will they get power and water turned on for their facilities in order to even think about operating?

3.  Any idea after today’s decision whether TL has the funds to operate/improve the snowmaking and lifts. Or is what we got last year as good as we will get, if that?

I am not looking for speculation or guesses, just want facts that better explain today’s actions, and their impact on TL’s future!

 

MorganB

aka The Colonel

They don’t have enough money to pay their phone and electric bills to reactivate service, until dragged into court they didn’t pay their required fees to CVPSD for 3-4 months. Their web site is still not activated for season pass sales. They don’t pay their bills no other utility will let them have an unreimbursed operator. 

Why would you expect they have performed capital improvements to the infrastructure and that things will be better this year?

JohnL, I have no idea whether they plan on any improvements for this season.  TL is the source of the big Facebook announcement that they have received recapitalization.  I have no idea what is truth about TL and what is “fake news”.  I agree that actions speak louder than words, but maybe their lawyers got the results they wanted at the hearing...a bit of a longer term Repayment plan rather than having to pay all they owe at once.  I am just looking for someone that might know the real facts.

MorganB

I don't think anyone except the principals know all the facts right now and I don't think they will be sharing them.  However, I do know that it takes months of hard work during the off season to get a ski mountain ready to open for the next season.  I know for a fact that nothing substantial has been done in that regards at Timberline this off season.  So the best outcome would be a fantastic natural snow season and lots of luck as far as substantial infrastructure failure goes even if a significant infusion of capital happens at this stage in the season. 

Everything now is speculation.  We think that the state kicked the can down the road but that's according to the owner's report, their words, not the official report.  I have learned a while ago that you don't belive what is printed or published in  media outlets by the current management.  Language is purposely vague and ambiguities abound. It's all their effort to say every day is a powder day when it's raining.   I'm affected by the utility since I live in one property and have a second one, both served by the utility.  My combined utility bill is well over $200/mo. and now I can't use the water for the forseeable future.  It's a result of gross mismanagement of revenues or intentional divirsion of the same.  I am upset by it and want something done but this is WV where convicted felons can run for office and it's no big deal.     

"I don’t think anyone except the principals know all the facts right now and I don’t think they will be sharing them."  

Agreed.  Thought there was a chance the Admin Judge in the utilities case would require the princpals of TFSU to provide additional financial information but nope.  In the spirit of DCSki's forum rules, here is a primer on what CAN happen next. I'm not proposing this will happen.  The cash sweep could hinder the resort's ability to make payroll every two weeks.  This is crucial, as they need employees to run the resort and generate revenue to pay their account payables.  If they can't generate the revenue to pay AP, then they will need to make payment arrangements with their creditors.  This is usually (but not always) done in bankruptcy court.  Another scenario is they obtain a cash infusion from a lender or investor (which is a recapitalization in the true sense of the word).  I'm sure they are and will continue to explore all options.

Unless we see significant snowmaking during cold spells in December, I don’t see how this dog hunts. I’m a homeowner and am already planning for the resort not to open. I will ski Canaan Valley, and Whitetail intsead and also plan more trips to New England, where I have relatives who enjoy the sport. What are other Season Pass and homeowners thinking of doing in the event the resort does not open? 

10 year homeowner here, 90% for skiing.  If they do not open, we will ski Canaan this winter, then convert our place to a three-season rental and not look back.  Business this summer in the Valley proved there is a market for rentals even with the "Four Seasons Resort" effectively abandoned. 

johnfmh wrote:

Unless we see significant snowmaking during cold spells in December, I don’t see how this dog hunts. I’m a homeowner and am already planning for the resort not to open. I will ski Canaan Valley, and Whitetail intsead and also plan more trips to New England, where I have relatives who enjoy the sport. What are other Season Pass and homeowners thinking of doing in the event the resort does not open? 

Former season pass holders at TLine (Valley homeowners)... can anyone compare/recommend Wisp to TLine? We too will also be skiing CV and NH, and have the Gems card for Colorado, which we also did last year. Twofers at A-Basin, Loveland, etc...

I've seen this business model over and over.  Making Timberline Great Again!

crgildart wrote:

I've seen this business model over and over.  Making Timberline Great Again!

Article on the utility issue just posted on WBOY:

https://www.wboy.com/news/wv-psc-acts-on-complaints-about-timberline-four-seasons-utilities/1569284971

http://www.psc.state.wv.us/scripts/WebDocket/ViewDocument.cfm?CaseActivityID=506819&NotType=%27WebDocket%27

JohnL wrote:

http://www.psc.state.wv.us/scripts/WebDocket/ViewDocument.cfm?CaseActivityID=506819&NotType=%27WebDocket%27

Yeah and just read the coment on T-line's realty facebook page.....   Thought i was in the know.

The fact that they are not yet selling lift tickets or season passes is telling. It's hard to operate without a stream of revenue. Of course if you don't know whether or not you plan to open, it's hard to sell tickets and passes. 

SCWVA wrote:

crgildart wrote:

I've seen this business model over and over.  Making Timberline Great Again!

 

Brilliant, Timberline should use that as their slogan. You can help out Timberline's Ski Patrol by stopping by Alpine Ski Shop this weekend for their annual ski swap that benefits Timberline's Ski Patrol. More Info here http://alpineskishop.com/ski-swap-information/

Naw, that woud be more like Timberline University.  Pay big bucks in tuition and end up with zero credentials.

crgildart wrote:

SCWVA wrote:

crgildart wrote:

I've seen this business model over and over.  Making Timberline Great Again!

 

Brilliant, Timberline should use that as their slogan. You can help out Timberline's Ski Patrol by stopping by Alpine Ski Shop this weekend for their annual ski swap that benefits Timberline's Ski Patrol. More Info here http://alpineskishop.com/ski-swap-information/

Naw, that woud be more like Timberline Ski Patrol University.  Pay big bucks in tuition and end up with zero credentials.

?

I wouldnt drag Ski Patrol or Ski School (instructors at least) into the mess the owners have created. Lots of good people.

JohnL wrote:

crgildart wrote:

SCWVA wrote:

crgildart wrote:

I've seen this business model over and over.  Making Timberline Great Again!

 

Brilliant, Timberline should use that as their slogan. You can help out Timberline's Ski Patrol by stopping by Alpine Ski Shop this weekend for their annual ski swap that benefits Timberline's Ski Patrol. More Info here http://alpineskishop.com/ski-swap-information/

Naw, that woud be more like Timberline University.  Pay big bucks in tuition and end up with zero credentials.

?

I wouldnt drag Ski Patrol or Ski School (instructors at least) into the mess the owners have created. Lots of good people.

Agreed, more like Timberline University..  Will edit and pull that out...

I have been watching videos I found on the TL Facebook pages.  They made me reslize what We skiers are going to be missing if TL is unable to open for the 18-29 Snow season.  Wow, what a hole will be left in the Mid-A ski scene without TL!!!  Let’s all cheer them on using the recapitalization $$$ to get operational this season .  And what a hoot to watch perfect strangers’ sking video selfies and being able to recognize the slopes they are on!

MorganB

aka The Colonel

crgildart wrote:

I've seen this business model over and over.  Making Timberline Great Again!

Well I think they are on to something this time.

Speaking of teaching and patrolling, can anyone confirm whether or not they've started any of the dry land training required for instructors and patrols every season at every resort?  Worst case scenario would be to have all those folks show up, go through the training, then not open leaving them without the job they trained for.

swimski wrote:

johnfmh wrote:

Unless we see significant snowmaking during cold spells in December, I don’t see how this dog hunts. I’m a homeowner and am already planning for the resort not to open. I will ski Canaan Valley, and Whitetail intsead and also plan more trips to New England, where I have relatives who enjoy the sport. What are other Season Pass and homeowners thinking of doing in the event the resort does not open? 

Former season pass holders at TLine (Valley homeowners)... can anyone compare/recommend Wisp to TLine? We too will also be skiing CV and NH, and have the Gems card for Colorado, which we also did last year. Twofers at A-Basin, Loveland, etc...

Actually, Canaan may have as much if not more vertical than Wisp.  Wisp is more spread out and disperses crowds. 

The Colonel wrote:

I have been watching videos I found on the TL Facebook pages.  They made me reslize what We skiers are going to be missing if TL is unable to open for the 18-29 Snow season.  Wow, what a hole will be left in the Mid-A ski scene without TL!!!  Let’s all cheer them on using the recapitalization $$$ to get operational this season .  And what a hoot to watch perfect strangers’ sking video selfies and being able to recognize the slopes they are on!

MorganB

Wish the recapitilization dollars were real.  Won't say too much more but hope they can pull it off,

aka The Colonel

I stopped at Timberline on Sunday afternoon.  It was a beautiful day without rain and less than 30 days out from their "opening".  It was a complete ghost town.  The ski guns were scattered in two different parking lots and the remnants of groomers were lined up like it was junk yard.  There was not anyone there at all.  If they were truly going to open, there would have been someone around, doing some sort of project in preparations for operations.  As of today, the phones are still disconnected.

I did not get out of my car.  There were some chairs still lined up on the ground near each of the two main lifts.  It did look like they had actually mowed parts of some of the slopes at some time in the near past.  It looks a lot more like a ski resort would look 30 days after closing for the season as opposed to one less than 30 days from trying to open.

crgildart wrote:

Speaking of teaching and patrolling, can anyone confirm whether or not they've started any of the dry land training required for instructors and patrols every season at every resort?  Worst case scenario would be to have all those folks show up, go through the training, then not open leaving them without the job they trained for.

Keep your heads up Gideon's Army is on the way to help.

Umm...so that FB post this morning. Bizarre and troubling, even for TL...

jmu2004 wrote:

Umm...so that FB post this morning. Bizarre and troubling, even for TL...

 

I was awake at 3am and saw this exact Facebook post as well, but it looks like it has since been removed. It was one of the most bizarre things I've ever seen, I had to keep clearing my eyes to believe what I was reading. Half a dozen comments on the post from readers had them equally stunned. It also had the hashtags listed below at the end of the post. What the heck is going on at that place? Very sad.

#AMERICANDREAM
#Election2018
#November6
#CanaanValley
#WestVirginia
#AlmostHeaven
#UnitedStatesSenate
#Immigration
#pioneers
#WeAreWestVirginia
#IMMIGRANTS

Yea. I commented and asked them to remove the post as it was bad for business. My comment was deleted and I was banned from their FB page.

Desperate times up there. Really sad.

They're not in control of their utility and other expenses and debt.  Corridor H should have been a Deux ex Machina for them.  Instead they act like the gubbermint's out ta get em..

Taxes and death are the only sure things in life.  Tline needs to pay their share and then they can deal with the latter.  Like an unfertilized egg...it's ova

Cfishnski wrote:

Eminent Domain...

Not a legal beagle, but doubt this applies to the ski area, maybe to the TL owned utilities that are in arrears.  

jmu2004 wrote:

Yea. I commented and asked them to remove the post as it was bad for business. My comment was deleted and I was banned from their FB page.

 

Desperate times up there. Really sad.

Congratulations!  I've been banned since I posted that the place looked like a dump and they need to clean up their business practices and leave my utility monies alone.  

I was deleated and unfriended and called names.   

Getting banned from their facebook page is almost a badge of honor.  T4SR would benefit from a little Bill Gates philosophy that your most unhappy customers are your greatest source of learning.

jimmy wrote:

crgildart wrote:

Speaking of teaching and patrolling, can anyone confirm whether or not they've started any of the dry land training required for instructors and patrols every season at every resort?  Worst case scenario would be to have all those folks show up, go through the training, then not open leaving them without the job they trained for.

Keep your heads up Gideon's Army is on the way to help.

😆😆😆😆😆😆

Always one step ahead of the play, J.

The Colonel wrote:

Cfishnski wrote:

Eminent Domain...

Not a legal beagle, but doubt this applies to the ski area, maybe to the TL owned utilities that are in arrears.  

 

OK then. Mercy Rule?

Can you all make your own Facebook group and take this discussion over there?  A lot of readers here are getting tired of the never-ending posts on this topic.

Scott, are people legitimately complaining? This post for instance, has about 20-30 more posts and views than most other recent active posts. Timberline seems to be hands down the favorite resort amongst most DCSkiers, so discussion on topics pertaining to the resort only makes sense. 

Also, if people are tired of seeing Timberline discussion, isn't it their fault? I mean the thread title is "Timberline's Future". The obvious solution is to not click the thread and go about their business.  

David wrote:

Scott, are people legitimately complaining? This post for instance, has about 20-30 more posts and views than most other recent active posts. Timberline seems to be hands down the favorite resort amongst most DCSkiers, so discussion on topics pertaining to the resort only makes sense. 

Also, if people are tired of seeing Timberline discussion, isn't it their fault? I mean the thread title is "Timberline's Future". The obvious solution is to not click the thread and go about their business.  

I concur.

David, I have to agree with you. This topic has 232 posts (233 now)... Scrolling through the list, I see most in single digits and only a few in the 20's or 30's, so this topic obviously means something to this group. Timberline is our local diamond in the rough and when snow is good there, nowhere else in the area compared. I feel like the terrain is much like a smaller Smuggler's Notch and has that feel. Smuggs has figured out how to embrace the slow lifts as a positive, has maintained its independence, and is thriving. I know it is a different model, but shows that private can succeed. I don't think many here are pulling for Timberline to fail, but are genuinely troubled by the signs that this year is looking dire and trying to stay on top of the situation.

David: Yes -- I've been receiving complaints about this for several years from readers who are not interested in Timberline and/or don't care to see all the complaints and snarky posts.  That is the most common negative feedback I hear about DCSki -- that it's becoming "overrun by the Timberline cabal."  This thread, for example, has 231 (!) posts and is frequently at the top of the Forum listing.  New readers to DCSki will come across this topic (since it's often right at the top of the forum section), see a bunch of people endlessly complaining, and assume that's the overall tone of DCSki.  DCSki isn't meant to be a complaint board; it's meant to be a place where people can celebrate skiing and share tips with each other.

Although this topic tends to generate a lot of posts (many of which are reasoned and constructive), in reality it's the same core set of people who are making the posts.  And I have to constantly be on edge with this topic -- for example, I've seen people make multiple accounts so they can appear to be multiple people posting on this topic -- and I've seen people post information that was demonstrably false.  Just yesterday, someone posted something that was in clear violation of DCSki's Terms of Use and I had to take action.  When I have to spend time carefully monitoring for these types of violations, that means I have less time to produce content about the 30+ ski resorts DCSki covers -- which is the main draw for the majority of DCSki's readers.  It ends up hurting the site and sapping my enthusiasm.  Without my enthusiasm, there is no DCSki -- this isn't a money-making venture for me.

I get that there's a core set of people who are passionate about Timberline and want to see the resort prosper.  And people have questions about the status of the resort.  I'm suggesting that core set might be better served by setting up their own discussion forum somewhere else for the "in depth" discussions and rumor sharing.  What's wrong with that?  I have to look out for the overall interests and tone of DCSki, and not just one sub-community.

Scott, that is a fair approach. Thanks for chiming in with details on your thoughts. Just typing that whole post took time that I am sure you would like to spend elsewhere. Thanks for keeping this site up and running. Would it be valuable to add a 4th option to the community tab to go with "Lost Ski Areas," "Mid-Atlantic Ski Clubs,and "Forum," : "Struggling Resorts." It would get Timberline discussions out of the main forum, and would accomodate whichever resort has trouble in the future as well. Just a thought.

I'm not sure why a thread having hundreds of posts is a problem and as others have said the title makes it very clear what the thread is about.  Even though I live several hours away from the valley I have become more connected to the area than to a half dozen closer resorts.

And the content of this thread is completely pertinent to the DCski site and community.  I don't think it's fair to characterize the threads comments as a collection of "snark" and with some exceptions I think the tone is pretty measured given how high stakes are for property owners. I consider this to be an important source of information especially now with the season right ahead of us.

I have nothing at stake here except for all the great days I have had skiing in the trees at Timberline in deep powder (some pretty fun debriefings in the Timbers as well) and how much I hope somehow this place can live up to it's full potential. Whitegrass, CVR and Timberline are crown jewels of southern/mid-atlantic skiing, but in my opinion they are at there best only when all three are running at least somewhat smoothly. Scott, I understand your criticism but really hope you aren't considering locking this thread.  It's this active for good reason, not rumour and snark.

And Scott in general thanks for this forum, it's the best of it's kind I frequent.  In fact I just became a supporter!

Well said Kemperski. 

Just last night I attended a "roundtable" discussion hosted by CVR and was joined by 120 residents and homeowners to discuss the economic viability of the valley.  The discussions were lively, the comments were not necessairly negative and some great information was shared.  There were numerous valley business owners who answered questions on every topic from lack of restaurants and bars to the slow internet that's a problem for those who rely on it for their work.  The two elephants in the valley, Timberline and Fish and Wildlife were not brought into the discussion although they were alluded to.  I was pleased of the resulting second meeting set up for December 1, 10 AM, at CVR.  Often enough, complaining about things results in people taking action to address those concerns and this was the case last night.  Eventually, Timberline will be involved in the mix, but its owners chose to not attend which is sad and they were invited as were all of those showed up.   

kemperski wrote:

...And the content of this thread is completely pertinent to the DCski site and community. ...

Let's see...12, 6, 9, 238 !!! Ummm...THIS seems to be the most pertinent  Thread by far. 

I don't know if there is a most pertinant thread, and I understand Scotts annoyance with this constantly being at the top of the forum but in my experience when I look at a forum/messageboard and have looked at a thread that doesn't interest me at all, or anymore, I barely register it and keep moving towards one that interests me.  

But this is an important issue, and hey -- it has made me get actively involved and I don't think I fall under the designation of "the same core of people"

This thread is the most important thread on this board hands down.  The best terrain south of Vermont and 3 hours from DC.  If it is not the most important thread and issue of this site, then it is not a skiing board.

I get the vibe that this site isn't all that thrilled to be a platform to criticize any partacular resort, especially a whipping post like this thread.  It doesn't even matter that most of the comments and criticisms are fact based.  I get the impression this forum was founded to be a "feel good' forum to share the joys of skiing the Mid Atlantic has to offfer.  Constantly throwing shade, even justly deserved shade, at a particular unfortunate situation, or situation after situation after situation...... in this case just goes contrary to that feel good vibe Scott would prefer. 

I guess someone needs to decide is this place more about accurate reporting and journalism, be it feel good or stinging critique?  Or is this only to be a platform for positive, advertising and reviews marketing type content?

I've been checking in the past few weeks mainly because of this thread. I've seen T4SR crazy posts elsewhere and come here for more detail. That detail can be court documents, speculation, backstory, former staff, or other. And it's all interesting to me as a skiing customer and Valley lover.

We could move this discussion to pugski where the red mid-atlantic tag has only been used on 7 threads in 2018.  Which is not very much.  

Community formation is a very active research area, and pretty interesting.  For whatever reason this community formed here and will be hard to stamp out. I come here for Tline news, but also for Dennis, CVR and Snowshoe, Whitegrass porn, the blue moon blizzards at whitetail or wintergreen, Bob's Summit County, MPC dreamers, even the return of Scott posting trip reports.  I miss Connie's reports, but know they are here.  Tline might numerically dominate, just because it is such a soap opera, but if Snowshoe was winding down that would be equally big news.  I like it here.

crgildart: This site is entirely about accurate reporting and journalism -- which is one of the primary problems with this topic.  When there was a chairlift accident at Timberline, DCSki was one of the first media outlets in the nation to report on it -- and had perhaps the most detailed reporting of any news outlet.  DCSki news stories have never hesitated to cover the good, bad, and ugly of skiing.  If you browse through DCSki stories, you'll find content that was painstakingly researched and written objectively.

There is a difference between DCSki's editorial coverage and the message forums, where readers contribute their own posts.  Every single person posting in this thread has chosen to hide behind an avatar and not use their real full name.  It becomes very difficult to fact check the things people are posting.  Readers might innocently post a rumor that doesn't pan out -- which is one thing.  Another thing entirely is when someone comes to DCSki and intentionally posts inaccurate information with the intent of causing harm.  That's called libel, and posting under a pseudonym does not protect the poster from a lawsuit.  If I become aware of inaccurate content, I also have a responsibility to remove it.

I have to constantly be on the lookout for that type of content, performing due diligence to quickly remove it.  That takes a lot of time and is definitely not how I want to be spending my time; it's very hard to gauge someone's intent when they post rumors.  The irony is that some of the very people who complain about me expressing concern about this are the ones I'm trying to protect from possible legal action.

It raises the risk beyond my level of comfort, and last I checked, I'm the one who puts my name and reputation on the site.

To be clear, the majority of posts here don't give me too much concern, and most of the posters on this thread are capable of sticking to the facts.  (As I said earlier, though, the perpetual negativity does turn off many readers.  Suggesting that people ignore threads about Timberline if they don't want to see the negativity isn't exactly fair -- because there are readers who do want to learn about Timberline but don't care for the snarky tone that often comes with that.)  But this topic generates way too many posts that require my constant attention and periodic intervention to protect the site.  I'm kind of tired of it, you know?  Sticking to facts is one thing, but it's hard to separate out speculation and rumors from intentional misinformation.  So if folks do want to traffic in that kind of speculation, it may be time for them to set up their own forum and personally accept the risks associated with that.

I second Pagamony’s motion to move the discussion to Pugski. I am a longtime property owner and pass holder at Timberline who is very concerned about the the decline of the resort. I have relied on DCSki to keep up with news and yes, gossip””some which has proved depressingly true. However, this is Scott’s site and I sympathize with his plight. He does not have time to monitor this thread, so let’s take it elsewhere. Also, it might be useful to get some thoughts from homeowners at other resorts across the country who have experienced similar woes. What does everyone else think? 

johnfmh wrote:

I second Pagamony’s motion to move the discussion to Pugski. I am a longtime property owner and pass holder at Timberline who is very concerned about the the decline of the resort. I have relied on DCSki to keep up with news and yes, gossip””some which has proved depressingly true. However, this is Scott’s site and I sympathize with his plight. He does not have time to monitor this thread, so let’s take it elsewhere. Also, it might be useful to get some thoughts from homeowners at other resorts across the country who have experienced similar woes. What does everyone else think? 

Done.  https://www.pugski.com/threads/the-timberline-thread.12295/    Lets try it.

Maybe Scott can talk Phil and Trish into putting a sub forum called DCSki on PugSki, then we can just all go there.

Irony, I actually backed off of PugSki due to the constant frequency of the site owners removing or editing member content without even telling them their content had been removed or edited  If you think Scott is a little too hands on with removing or changing the content long time forum members post, you're not going to like PugSki any better.  TGR's the place to go for free speech approaching chaos and zero censorship.  PugSkis a great forum, but the owners there are pretty picky about what they allow there versus what they don't allow there.

I am so NOT interested in being part of anymore messageboards.

This is not the first season Timberline has had difficulties at opening, last season they opened well past the posted date and well after other resorts had started skiing. Broken pumps, borrowed groomers, etc, as I recall.   My question is for those who live nearby, was there a similar lack of apparent activity at the same time last year?  Could they still scramble to get a start.

Scott this is not intended to fan anything, very soon I hope to get some clear idea because it impacts commitments for the rest of the season, passes, travel etc.  The only rumor I'll indulge in is that I think this could be a really good winter for WV.  

Kemperski - as a 13  consecutive year multiple season passholder that will break that streak this year I can tell you two things based on my experiences during those years (these are my personal opinions and are not intended to be taken as anything but my personal opinion others may differ):

1 - They will open. They always do no matter how dire the situation looks.  Until I see it with my own eyes I won't believe otherwise.

2 - The resort will be poorly managed.  It always has been no matter what anyone says.  Until I see it with my own eyes I won't believe otherwise.

If the lifts are spinning it's all I need, I make my visits on short-storm-notice.

I get all the uphill I can handle at Whitegrass and Berthoud Pass, otherwise I'm really fond of chairlifts

I think the lifts will spin (opinion).  I know they will stop a lot - a whole lot (editorial).  One time they hit the ground (factual).

Fake News................Never happened. 

TomH wrote:

 One time they hit the ground (factual).

crgildart wrote:

Irony, I actually backed off of PugSki due to the constant frequency of the site owners removing or editing member content ...

Great.  New goal:  how many boards kick us off before we go to TGR....

Kemper - its just one more thin mint....

IF they have water and electricity they will open.  It's the only way they can bring in revenues to pay their debts and the utility companies know that.

I signed up for PUGSKI.com to help Scott manage DCSki and his time.  I suspect he is as curious as to what is really going on behind the scenes at TL as the rest of us at DCSki.  I just noticed a number of DCSkier members posts on PUGSKI today. 

I really don't think it's right to bring this discursion over to PugSki without first talking to Tricia and Phil and providing background and context. We all too often forget that these web sites are not public squares and we just assume that we have freedom to express any opinion or idea believing our viempoints are reasonable regardless of the equest made by the sites owner. These sites are privately owned and the owners set the rules. Both Scott, and Tricia and Phil have worked hard to build welcoming, friendly communities. How would you like it if a stranger came into your house unannounced and began to make themselves at home with out a proper introduction or a gift of adult beverages to share? Scott gave you legitimate reasons to be careful about the tone of the discussion and possible legal liabilities he could face. The same concern holds true there. Someone should contact Phil and Tricia and ask permission to continue the discussions. Long term cross posters have already commented on the manner in which you began this topic there.

*sigh*

fishnski wrote:

"How would you like it if a stranger came into your house unannounced and began to make themselves at home with out a proper introduction or a gift of adult beverages to share? "..................Caravan?.......Hey..just trying to help Scott out and divert this thread off of TL...!...and its SNOWING!!!

What? Man you just can't leave your politics out of your posts, can you. You're obsessed. It does not belong here. Take it elsewhere.

As things progress on Timberline, if the DCski community could please keep the ski community updated with factual information, it would be appreciated.

snowsmith wrote:

fishnski wrote:

"How would you like it if a stranger came into your house unannounced and began to make themselves at home with out a proper introduction or a gift of adult beverages to share? "..................Caravan?.......Hey..just trying to help Scott out and divert this thread off of TL...!...and its SNOWING!!!

What? Man you just can't leave your politics out of your posts, can you. You're obsessed. It does not belong here. Take it elsewhere.

As things progress on Timberline, if the DCski community could please keep the ski community updated with factual information, it would be appreciated.

 

Look, I live in the valley and have to boil my water..  Does that qualify me as someone who can say what I see going on or not going on at the resort?  My up to date FACTUAL observations....  They moved 20 guns onto the mountain on Friday and Saturday. I'm not sure who the 'they" were but it was done.  There is still no electric to run said guns.  There are chairs on the ground beside each lift which were removed back in early October and they are still laying on the ground meaning the lifts haven't been inspected or may be inspected soon.    I haven't done a walk through the lodge but may do so this week.  It was amess when we had the ski school meeting on the 27th  Supposively their phone is being reconnected but they didn't get the number and that was from Fred's last e-mail to those of us impacted by the BWN.   

Kwillg6- I don’t make the posting rules on this site. I can understand Scott’s concerns. However, we all love Timberline and want to see it succeed. I have seen these situations before. The owners are undercapitalized, and probably are receiving either a new line of credit or money from investors. All of which takes time. Of course this is all speculation which we are trying to avoid. I can also understand that this is an emotional issue, especially for TL property owners. I sincerely hope this situation gets resolved quickly.

I'm not posting anything that anybody who could drive to the valley and open their eyes could see as fact.  So.... today, we drove to dinner at  friend's condo right beside the place and the back hoe was at the woods hole lift and had had been using it to put the chairs back onto it.  My question... was the lift inspected, by whom and when? I will go in and ask tomorrow or Tuesday.  Or better yet go ask the guys doing the work.  They have no reason to lie to me.   BTW no phone and no power so how are they selling to all those groups? That question has me perplexed.... 

kwillg6 wrote:

I'm not posting anything that anybody who could drive to the valley and open their eyes could see as fact.  So.... today, we drove to dinner at  friend's condo right beside the place and the back hoe was at the woods hole lift and had had been using it to put the chairs back onto it.  My question... was the lift inspected, by whom and when? I will go in and ask tomorrow or Tuesday.  Or better yet go ask the guys doing the work.  They have no reason to lie to me.   BTW no phone and no power so how are they selling to all those groups? That question has me perplexed.... 

My guess is they are hanging the chairs in preparation for inspections. Here in PA, lift inspection is done with chairs in place. In PA the inspection is done by state inspectors. I'm not sure who requires a safety inspection in WV except maybe their insurers. Thanks for the first hand report. I miss the glades and Off The Wall and The Drop on a warm April day.

kwillg6 wrote:

I'm not posting anything that anybody who could drive to the valley and open their eyes could see as fact.  So.... today, we drove to dinner at  friend's condo right beside the place and the back hoe was at the woods hole lift and had had been using it to put the chairs back onto it.  My question... was the lift inspected, by whom and when? I will go in and ask tomorrow or Tuesday.  Or better yet go ask the guys doing the work.  They have no reason to lie to me.   BTW no phone and no power so how are they selling to all those groups? That question has me perplexed.... 

I believe they have to have all the chairs strung before they can do the required load testing for inspection and certification.

Just a song before I go,
To whom it may concern
Traveling twice the speed of sound
It's easy to get burned

The Colonel wrote:

I signed up for PUGSKI.com to help Scott manage DCSki and his time.  I suspect he is as curious as to what is really going on behind the scenes at TL as the rest of us at DCSki.  I just noticed a number of DCSkier members posts on PUGSKI today. 

Not trying to single you out Morgan but this just sounds wrong to me. We are supposed to go over to Pugski to discuss this to "help Scott manage DCSki and his time."? Screw that! The reason to go over to Pugski is it is a very active community of snowsports lovers from all over the country, the quality and amount of content over there is just amazing. Trip reports, ski reviews, a market place to buy and sell, off season and off topic forums. The Timberline discussion over there hasn't ruffled any feathers that i am aware of, once the two topics yinz started got merged into one. Check Pugski out, participate, make some new friends. 

It is too bad that this discussion is not welcome here, on a forum that is supposed to be focused on skiing in the Mid-Atlantic.

Sincerely,

Jimmy Swann

 not "hiding behind an avatar" and a proud member of the "Timberline Cabal."

Well at least in terms of probably late but eventual opening I choose to consider this good news.   Thank you SO MUCH for fiorst hand observations  and updates.  

For you folks who live under this water issue, I can barely imagine your frustration and consider your posts to be really even keeled considering the impact your suffering

https://www.parsonsadvocate.com/investigations-begin-bwn-continues-at-timberline/

Looks like the reports of state and county police snooping around at Timberline were indeed true. 

Also, if you're keeping track, still no power. And still a boil water advisory. 

David wrote:

https://www.parsonsadvocate.com/investigations-begin-bwn-continues-at-timberline/

Looks like the reports of state and county police snooping around at Timberline were indeed true. 

Also, if you're keeping track, still no power. And still a boil water advisory. 

Dumb questions here

  In the article Fred is quoted as saying the resort plans to open on 11/30. How is that possible when

1) The resort is still not selling passes or lift tickets (15 days to open)

2) Thus people cannot reasonably be expected to rent priperties

3) Since there is no power, how can the resort test lifts/ get them certified

4) Potable water -- no point in elaborating here.

Anything new?  When opening?

According to the Timberline website the resort has received full re-capitalization and will be opening on November 30th.

It is a good thing I got my muffler bearings replaced in the truck or I probably wouldn't be able to drive up 48 to the resort.  Whew!!!

The Colonel wrote:

Anything new?  When opening?

They are still saying Nov 30th. They are also saying call 304-866-4801 for more information. I tried calling but this number remains disconnected, as it has since Spring. Website has not been updated anytime recently. 2018/2019 lift ticket prices have not been announced or published. The haven't started making snow yet. The boil water notice remains in full effect. I have not heard if they have got their power turned back on yet.

David wrote:

The Colonel wrote:

Anything new?  When opening?

They are still saying Nov 30th. They are also saying call 304-866-4801 for more information. I tried calling but this number remains disconnected, as it has since Spring. Website has not been updated anytime recently. 2018/2019 lift ticket prices have not been announced or published. The haven't started making snow yet. The boil water notice remains in full effect. I have not heard if they have got their power turned back on yet.

There were a number of lights on at the lodge and lift base this evening. 

ThT’s encouraging 

ChmxJoe74 wrote:

David wrote:

The Colonel wrote:

Anything new?  When opening?

They are still saying Nov 30th. They are also saying call 304-866-4801 for more information. I tried calling but this number remains disconnected, as it has since Spring. Website has not been updated anytime recently. 2018/2019 lift ticket prices have not been announced or published. The haven't started making snow yet. The boil water notice remains in full effect. I have not heard if they have got their power turned back on yet.

There were a number of lights on at the lodge and lift base this evening. 

Today's skinny on t-line.  They somehow got power on and have fired up a half dozen pole cat guns in the lower area and 3/4 up on woods hole.  Don't know if they have snow max and won't be able to tell until a day or two.  No guns blowing going up to mid station but that could change.  They could be open by th 30th but as of now, woodshole only.  chairs for the other lifts still on the ground. Evidently they got some money from somewhere but by appearances nothing much else is happening.  i'll do a drive/walk through around 4 and see what else is happening.  

At 4:30 today all was quiet.  Guns off.  Only a couple of cars in the parking lot. 

At 4:30 today all was quiet.  Guns off.  Only a couple of cars in the parking lot. 

Simple question for all: Re taking the kids there: Do you think it'll be safe?

snow.buck wrote:

Simple question for all: Re taking the kids there: Do you think it'll be safe?

Simple answer: I would not put my children on a lift at Timberline. 

When?    and probably not unless things change quickly.

Looks like lift ticket prices are out, and a revised opening date of Dec, 07th. 

Timberline - http://www.timberlineresort.com/tickets.php

Canaan Valley - https://www.canaanresort.com/ski-winter-activities/skiing-snowboarding/lift-tickets/

fishnski wrote:

$89 buck all day weekend Lift tickets...Hell Yehhhhh!.... Ill Pawn off my skiis!!!

Seven Springs prices with Blue Knob infrastructure. Where do I sign up? 🤣

We pay $64 for an 8 hour flex ticket and get $10 back if we only stay four hours. That's the weekend/holiday rate too..

Well... I'm still really looking forward to my first day this season in the glades, any glades.  I'm glad they got their act together for us tourists at least, but realize that is a long way from fixing the problems for you folks who live there.  And I do not imagine this is the start of a new beginning but am glad at least there's another season.

WV Gazette See this yet?

I thought that was good reporting, leaned a bit heavily on quotes from the owners but in a way that kept some appropriate skepticism.

It is hard to call this article good reporting.  One of the owners that was quoted heavily is a former contributor to the Gazette.  Her attempts to spin this and do damage control are in a word.......CRAZY.  At least the owners did not criticize the local law enforcent like they did in the Parson Advocate article.  

TL posted a few videos on Facebook.  Looks like they made / are making a ton of snow.  

A little propaganda in the Intermountain today.

http://www.theintermountain.com/news/local-news/2018/11/timberline-officials-address-concerns/

Just to clarify to all of those that are concerned, Tracy did drastically overestimate about Canaan Valley Resort losing most of the snow they made to rain. One quick look at their Webcam (it actually works) shows otherwise:

”For example, (Monday) the rain washed off just about everything off the Canaan Valley Resort State Park hill and they have (thousands of dollars) worth of snow making so that’s a lot of electricity we didn’t choose to waste,”

As one who follows resort webcams regularly this time of the year, CVR’s snow was never at risk of being “washed off” and clearly they did not waste electricity or money. 

Don't bother with the Webcam, check this video CVR posted on their Facebook just a few hours ago. Incredible amounts of snow!! Glad to see them having early season success as far as snow making goes. 

https://www.facebook.com/canaanvalleyresort/videos/586568445146460/UzpfSTQ4MjYxNjQzODcwOjEwMTU2MjAwMzAxNjkzODcx/

It annoys me a great deal that Canaan can open and doesn't open until Dec. 15,  Timberline is a mess but if they succeed in opening by the 7th they should get kudos and I think criticism of CVR is warranted

David wrote:

A little propaganda in the Intermountain today.

http://www.theintermountain.com/news/local-news/2018/11/timberline-officials-address-concerns/

 

 

I found it very interesting that Snowshoe also called it B.S. in the comment section of the Intermountain.  Good for them.  

Keith, What were the Snowshoe comments in regard to the Timberline article in the Intermountain newspaper?

KeithT wrote:

David wrote:

A little propaganda in the Intermountain today.

http://www.theintermountain.com/news/local-news/2018/11/timberline-officials-address-concerns/

 

 

I found it very interesting that Snowshoe also called it B.S. in the comment section of the Intermountain.  Good for them.  

Canaan did as well but that comment went away after only a few hours. 

Snowshoes comments:

Contrary to the statements made in the article, our snowmaking investment has paid huge dividends already. We are open today with 20 trails and over 70 acres of skiable terrain, most of which is attributable to our snowmaking upgrades. Ski season is off to a great start in West Virginia

I agree good for them to call out the spin in the article

I'm trying to get used to defending SS over the valley, But T-line is ridiculous and CVR should have runs open already

Considering timberline has been trying to squash rumors/truths/mutterings of their demise for the last 6 months seems like they should be staying out of making comments of other resorts, especially when they are easy to prove wrong. But in general throwing stuff around like that isn’t what most ski areas do...look at als blog for a basin for example, he regularly mentions Loveland in positive manner, even though that is clearly his direct competition.

The hertz need to worry about their own issues and let Canaan and snowshoe worry about their own. All of them feed WV tourism after all, and even though snowshoe is corporate it’s jobs for locals and money in the area, which is supposedly what timberline wants based on their re capitalization statement.