With what now seems to be two absolutely terrible winters in a row, the question must be asked: can the Allegheny Mountain ski resorts absorb two bad seasons in a row financially and which resorts are hurting the most from this weather?
I am the operator of the Ski the Alleghenies Twitter account (@skitheallegheny) and when I say "Allegheny Mountain Resorts" I am referring to Blue Knob, Hidden Valley, Seven Springs, Laurel Mountain, Wisp, Timberline, Canaan Valley, Snowshoe, & Winterplace.
I'm farther south, but what I can say is the days of reduced lift ticket prices on days when the resort has less than 100% or even less than 50% of the terrain open are long gone. I think, if anything, resorts that can still manage to get terrain open will be raising prices to remain profitable. It seems to take more and more resources to cover and keep the trails covered at most resorts east of the Mississippi and south of New York.
Don't blame the weather, blame the incompetent owners.
An excellent snow year bails out incompetence. Before the last two poor winters, that happened.
Snowshoe appears to not be hurting too much. They have a business model, and are executing it. The others places you list have had/have ownership issues (including CVR whose owner is the state - there are a unique set of issues there.)
Whitetail, Liberty and Roundtop are well run and do not have the climate advantages of the Allegheny areas you have listed.
JohnL wrote:
Don't blame the weather, blame the incompetent owners.
An excellent snow year bails out incompetence. Before the last two poor winters, that happened.
Snowshoe appears to not be hurting too much. They have a business model, and are executing it. The others places you list have had/have ownership issues (including CVR whose owner is the state - there are a unique set of issues there.)
Whitetail, Liberty and Roundtop are well run and do not have the climate advantages of the Allegheny areas you have listed.
Well, I think the reason Snowshoe doesn't seem to hurting as much is because of its Intrawest ownership (which to my knowledge is a fairly large cooperation). So I think it is fair to say that Snowshoe is getting the funding that these other smaller resorts simply don't have in addition to its high altitude climate. While I do understand that there has certainly been ownership issues at several other resorts, I think a lack of funding (or perhaps a mishandling of the little funding they do have) makes these other smaller resorts appear even more incompetent. I can't imagine the Allegheny resorts have had a profitable season in a couple of years which makes the issue even worse.
I believe you are incorrect about Snowshoe: it has been one of Intrawest's most profitable resorts and the present CEO DeBerry has has managed the product quite well with unique marketing ideas such as the highly successful Ridiculous Pass!
MorganB
aka The Colonel
You are also incorrect about Canaan Valley Resort! It is not run by the state, rather it is run for profit by an outside contractor chosen by the state. The present managing contractor is new as of a couple years ago and the expansion of the snow making and other recent improvements are the reason the Resort is providing a better experience than in years past. Well managed facilities and friendly employees make a positive difference!
MorganB
aka The Colonel
Seven Springs owns Hidden Valley and operates state owned Laurel Mountain whose infrastructure was renovated with a $6.5 million capital infusion. PA appears to be serious about their commitment to provide skiing in the 4 state parks that have a ski area. In addition to Laurel there is Denton Hill, Blue Knob, and Camelback. PA is considering a $12.6 million capital infusion at Denton Hill but if that does happen it will take several years. Seven Springs will be fine with Hidden Valley and Laurel. They will continue to seek inroads in the Baltimore/DC market. Blue Knob I think is going through either a management or ownership change, most of the resort is on private land. I'm not sure how they are doing this year. Wisp was having some financial issues and there's a rumored sale pending. I think the future of some of these places will be in continue industry consolidation.
There was a time that resorts made significant money selling real estate. For example, where I own, HV, ther are 1200 resort homes (condos, town houses, single homes). Snowshoe, Wisp, at one time made significant money selling real estate. Since the Great Recession, ski resort real estate sales have been stagnant and little new product has come on the market. Thus, money needs to be made operating the resort. Snowtime has never relied on real estate sales. And yet they have continually reinvested in their resorts. They of course have the Baltimore-Washington market to draw from. Thus the destination resorts such as CV, Snowshoe, etc need to make money by offering a better ski product. They of course can't control the weather. If skiers don't show up because the weather sucks, you can have the best management in the ski world, their still not going to show up. Most folks don't think about a ski trip to local destination resorts when it's 65 degrees. Maybe it's time to start selling real estate again?
i have looked at beach real estate over the past several years, and they can't build them fast enough. Maybe the Allegheny resorts need to start selling real estate again to supplement operating income?
snowsmith wrote:
i have looked at beach real estate over the past several years, and they can't build them fast enough. Maybe the Allegheny resorts need to start selling real estate again to supplement operating income?
Take a look at Zillow for snowshoe, wv... most of the properties are going for less than 50% of the original cost and have been on the market for a LONG time. This is not a sellers market in the region right now.There was a whole building that they were never able to sell and was never built (Seven Rivers I think)
Whitetail also has a sign up for ledgewood housing still that appears to be close to a decade old... I'm not sure those houses will ever be built.
I believe Seven Springs and deep creek properties seem to have held value through the ressesion OK... but havent really gone up much in the last 5 years.
The Colonel wrote:
You are also incorrect about Canaan Valley Resort! It is not run by the state, rather it is run for profit by an outside contractor chosen by the state. The present managing contractor is new as of a couple years ago and the expansion of the snow making and other recent improvements are the reason the Resort is providing a better experience than in years past. Well managed facilities and friendly employees make a positive difference!
MorganB
aka The Colonel
Strongly disagree. I've skied CVR quite a bit this past season. While they have made more snow than in years past, they have made less snow than has T-Line. I've skied both places on the same day this year.
The state sets the contract funding. Based on my observations this year, it is still too low. Contractors have to work with the constraints of a contract.
JohnL wrote:
Snowshoe appears to not be hurting too much. They have a business model, and are executing it.
Agree. They have to be making money on LODGING and other fee based activities. My occupancy rate from 12/23 - 2/28 is over 90%. (61 out of 67 nights). I'm having a pretty good year which is shocking given the Jan and Feb heat waves.
Anecdotally it would seem that Snowshoe is not doing too poorly this year, in terms of skier visits and occupancy rates. Will these sorts of numbers for this season ever be publically available? I think Intrawest is a publically traded company, but they are themselves owned by a private equity firm. I am not sure what this means as far as having to make public various metrics such as skier visits.
I also wonder how much more our local resorts have had to run their snowguns. Don't places like Snowshoe and Wintergreen typically make snow whenever they can up through President's day? In that case, the milder winter and fewer snowmaking opportunities would result in lower snowmaking costs (and less base) rather than more. I seem to recall a few years back Wintegreen reported a 60 inch base at maximum. They didn't get close to that this year. So it is not necessarily the case that snowmaking costs have gone up the last couple years. Of course, less base = potential shorter season = lost revenue, which I guess brings us back the OP's initial point.
wgo wrote:
Will these sorts of numbers for this season ever be publically available?
If I'm not mistaken, they have shared this info at our HOA meetings in the past.
~400k skier visits is in my head but I drank a lot yesterday while wearing shorts / t shirt in third week of May, oops I mean February
The beach real estate is being developed by major builders such as Ryan Homes, NV, Schell Brothers,etc. they have major marketing power. The big sellers are garage town homes and single family homes. Condos don't sell well. Check out Bayside, Bay Forest, and Bishops Landing websites in the Bethany Beach area. Snowshoe is too far away for most people from the Baltimore/Wah area to consider. I'm not going to drive 5.5 hours on a Friday night to get to a vacation home. However, Wisp, 7springs, Whietail, HV, etc are relatively close by comparison and similar to the driving distance to the beach.i think the resorts should sell their undeveloped land to developers who know how to develop and market resort real estate. Another factor is the skiing population has barely increased since the 1970's. if the industry is going to prosper, they need more than die hards like us. You only have to look at the lost ski area websites to see that this industry lacks creative thinking when it comes to growing the business.
wgo wrote:
I also wonder how much more our local resorts have had to run their snowguns. Don't places like Snowshoe and Wintergreen typically make snow whenever they can up through President's day? In that case, the milder winter and fewer snowmaking opportunities would result in lower snowmaking costs (and less base) rather than more.
I think that the shorter snow making windows required more of a 24/7 staffing approach to capture every possible flake. Lots of moving guns around, lots of pushing snow whales around.. a lot of that needs to happen after hours requiring higher variable costs per day unless they can find people willing to work all night for the same rate that others work days for. If they can't find enough temps to fill in and show up on short notice those days when the temps go back down they end up paying overtime to the regular workers required for daily operations regularly.
crgildart wrote:
wgo wrote:
I also wonder how much more our local resorts have had to run their snowguns. Don't places like Snowshoe and Wintergreen typically make snow whenever they can up through President's day? In that case, the milder winter and fewer snowmaking opportunities would result in lower snowmaking costs (and less base) rather than more.
I think that the shorter snow making windows required more of a 24/7 staffing approach to capture every possible flake. Lots of moving guns around, lots of pushing snow whales around.. a lot of that needs to happen after hours requiring higher variable costs per day unless they can find people willing to work all night for the same rate that others work days for. If they can't find enough temps to fill in and show up on short notice those days when the temps go back down they end up paying overtime to the regular workers required for daily operations regularly.
Ok, that makes sense. Yet another reason why the resorts that were willing and able to make the investment in automated systems are better positioned to weather (no pun intended) seasons like this.
The change over to mostly automated snowguns at Wintergreen and Massanutten in recent years has clearly made a big difference. When the snowmaking window is 4-6 hours, being able to have guns turn on and off without a snowmaker means making much better use of the time available as soon as wet bulb conditions are satisfied. Doesn't help that much to buy new guns if you don't have time to get them all turned on before they need to be turned off.
The depth at the base of Mnut this weekend is far more than I ever remember after a warm spell in early Feb. There were three nights and most of a day last week where the snowguns were on. Conveyor loading on the base lifts helps too since no snow is required all over the loading area.
The mid-A ski areas with good snowmaking systems seem to be doing ok, but the mild weather this winter has no doubt been a challenge for many. It's particularly striking how we are suffering while New England is soaring. A lot of time the mid-A tracks New England a little more closely, always warmer and less snowy, but not so dramatic a delta as this year. I guess everytime we got rain, they got snow up north. Now that I think about it there was a pretty good delta last year in the opposite. Last year was only a little sub-par for us, while it was way below par for New England. Look at this report from a couple days ago about the good season up north:
By LISA RATHKE Associated Press
BURKE, Vt. ”” The gods have answered the call of skiers, snowmobilers and dog mushers, dumping mounds of snow in northern New England following little snow last season during the warmest winter on record in some spots.
The biggest snowstorms of this season, followed by days of flurries, have unloaded more than 2 feet of snow ”“ higher amounts in the mountains ”“ in the past week across Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine.
“I haven’t seen skiing this good in Vermont in over 20 years,” said Tom Luxon, of Norwich, on Thursday as he was leaving the slopes at Burke Mountain.
Brian Thompson drove five hours from New Haven, Connecticut, to experience the powder.
“It’s just been unreal,” he said of the conditions at Burke.
The snow bounty comes just a year after the region suffered one of its mildest winters. Due to the warmer conditions, ski resorts were left scrambling for enough snow. Ice fishing derbies and snowmobiling events had to be postponed, moved or canceled.
This year couldn’t be more different.
A series of storms in the last week has pummeled the region. The Maine town of Eastport reported 69 inches in a 10-day period while the state’s largest ski resorts, Sunday River and Sugarloaf, reported record-setting snowfalls for February, with 4 feet in the last week. Burke Mountain reported 20 inches overnight Wednesday-Thursday.
In the Moosehead Lake region in Maine’s snow belt a sled dog race that had to be canceled last year went on this month as scheduled.
“Obviously with no snow it’s a challenge, but this year there was plenty,” said Karen Lewsen, of Greenville, Maine. “We’ve had 80 inches of snow.”
Visits to Cannon Mountain Ski Area in Franconia, New Hampshire, are up by 65 percent, and snow cover is three times what it was last year at this time, spokesman Greg Keeler said.
“It’s completely different. People are excited. We have been busy,” Keeler said, adding that the Christmas week numbers were some of the biggest in the resort’s history.
The dramatic rebound has helped some resorts begin to recover from a disastrous year in which skier and snowboard visits were down, including 32 percent in Vermont.
But it also served to highlight the growing challenges that come with being part of the ski business at a time when the climate is changing.
Some resorts are preparing for warmer winters while also saving energy costs and making better quality snow by adding energy efficient snowmaking that allows them to make snow at higher temperatures and at a lower cost, said Parker Riehle, president of the Vermont Ski Areas Association. That allows the ski areas to start making snow earlier and to extend their seasons, he said.
“Obviously, it’s always a good feeling when you are having a good winter and it’s snowing. You roll with what you are dealt with,” Keeler said. “I wouldn’t assume next year will be like this year. The best you can do is to make investments like energy efficient snow guns like we do so that we are able have more flexibility as to when we make snow and how much we make.”
PS: I heard MRG had its biggest day ever on Saturday 2/18/17, and Sugarbush was in the top 5 all-time, close to 9500 skiers on Saturday.
chaga wrote:
...actually, most of the population of tucker county has a certain disliking for the 'granolas up on the mountain' and don't even like snow.!
Reminds me of Ithaca's motto. "Ten square miles of paradise surrounded by reality".
The lift workers also don't seem to be practioners like in New England or west.
> Anecdotally it would seem that Snowshoe is not doing too poorly this year, in terms of skier visits and occupancy rates.
I wonder what that means for future expansion at Snowshoe. With the weather turning the way that it is I think it would be tough to sign off on any major expansion (new terrain, lift upgrades) without knowing for sure where the resort is going to be 5-10 years down the road.
With that being said if things dont get better... but at the same time dont get worse... smaller resorts are going to quickly feel the pinch which will force more people to drive the extra hour/two and will further congest their main basin and then they will be kicking themselves for not starting expansion sooner.
Thoughts?
As long as people aren't buying real estate, which helps fund and drive expansion, they have no reason to expand. Additionally the skiing market/population has remained static. For me, if I'm going to drive 5.5 hours to ski 850 feet of vertical, I'll drive another hour and go to Vermont. However,Snowshoe draws a lot of southern skiers and they offer a great product. I just don't see any expansions for any of the resorts in DCSki country. The economics are just not there.
snowsmith wrote:
As long as people aren't buying real estate, which helps fund and drive expansion, they have no reason to expand. Additionally the skiing market/population has remained static. For me, if I'm going to drive 5.5 hours to ski 850 feet of vertical, I'll drive another hour and go to Vermont. However,Snowshoe draws a lot of southern skiers and they offer a great product. I just don't see any expansions for any of the resorts in DCSki country. The economics are just not there.
If the Mid-Atlantic and SE resorts were only for winter fun, expansion would make no sense at all. However, resorts such as Snowshoe or Massanutten are making money as 4-season resorts. Skiing/boarding is one of many activities that fills rooms and eating places. There are expansions for snowsports that also can be used during the busier summer season. For example, Massanutten upgraded the ski lifts in a few years ago. Last summer added the capability to load mountain bikes to two lifts. Would not have been practical with the old doubles that were replaced. I don't think Mnut is done upgrading the snow experience.
dt3 wrote:
> Anecdotally it would seem that Snowshoe is not doing too poorly this year, in terms of skier visits and occupancy rates.
I wonder what that means for future expansion at Snowshoe. With the weather turning the way that it is I think it would be tough to sign off on any major expansion (new terrain, lift upgrades) without knowing for sure where the resort is going to be 5-10 years down the road.
With that being said if things dont get better... but at the same time dont get worse... smaller resorts are going to quickly feel the pinch which will force more people to drive the extra hour/two and will further congest their main basin and then they will be kicking themselves for not starting expansion sooner.
Thoughts?
At Snowshoe specifically, it's not the financial issues preventing a terrain expansion, it's the salamander. Seriously, it's in an environmentally fragile area so they are not allowed to expand terrain because of the (Cheat Mountain?) Salamander's tenuous hold on life and reproduction.
Now the lifts are another thing. I prefer that Snowshoe have no additional uphill capacity, I think the trails are crowded enough as they are and I'm not sure I could tolerate any more out-of-control sliders as my family and I make our way down.
eggraid wrote:
....it's in an environmentally fragile area so they are not allowed to expand terrain because of the (Cheat Mountain?) Salamander's tenuous hold on life and reproduction.
These concerns are a thing of the past now. Build baby build now
camp wrote:
Build baby build now
We have a better chance of seeing SNOW tomorrow than new development at SS in the next 10 years.
No one's going to build a new complex at these prices.
http://snowshoeresort.idxbroker.com/idx/details/listing/a272/16-1004/345-MOUNTAIN-LODGE-SNOWSHOE-WV-26209
You have to ask the question...why? What happened the ski real estate market in DCski country. New beach real estate communities in the Rehoboth Beach and Bethany Beach areas are selling as fast as they build them. See the attached websites for Bayside and Bay Forest.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBAMnzlai8Y
There is a big second home and retirement home market in Delaware.
eggraid wrote:
At Snowshoe specifically, it's not the financial issues preventing a terrain expansion, it's the salamander. Seriously, it's in an environmentally fragile area so they are not allowed to expand terrain because of the (Cheat Mountain?) Salamander's tenuous hold on life and reproduction.
I dug a 24" dia x 36" deep hole near my house and came across 3 sallys.....hardly extinct!
Ain't no one retiring to snowshoe, it's cold, boring in the off season, and very limited health care. Being in the target market, I feel like ski shack buyers are younger successfull people with kids or grandparents that get tired of the hassle of renting a place for family and friends. If they are successful enough they just go to Vail and Snowbird. Hell, even I would rather buy a place 60 miles west of Denver than here. I think the pure ski resort market in this region will be difficullt ongoing. The shrinking of the middle class and the lousy winters are a problem. If we can fix those problems then snow.buck will be buying again. just my 2c.
snowsmith wrote:
You have to ask the question...why? What happened the ski real estate market in DCski country. New beach real estate communities in the Rehoboth Beach and Bethany Beach areas are selling as fast as they build them. See the attached websites for Bayside and Bay Forest.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBAMnzlai8Y
There is a big second home and retirement home market in Delaware.
I'll bet if you ask 10 strangers on the street if they would want a beach house or a ski house, 8 would say the beach. The beach is free (no lift tickets). The weather is far more predictable (it's not 32 in July). The equipment costs less (no skis boots poles). Beaches are usually easy to get to. (snowshoe drive?) Kids are off all summer. Most old people do not ski and dont like being cold.
Guys like us are the minority. I agree with the quote above about the ski resort market in this area will be difficult ongoing ...... especially when it's 74 degrees in Feb.
pagamony wrote:
Ain't no one retiring to snowshoe,.... If we can fix those problems then snow.buck will be buying again.
LOL SS real estate, HOA's, etc are a 4-letter word. If I want to go ski, I'll use another 4-letter word = RENT...leave the headaches, assessments, and damage to the Owner. Trying to convey what owning there was like is like having your wife describe childbirth in a Tweet! LOL LOL You just have to experience it. Fees, taxes, lack of area infrastructure, so dead some months the Starbucks CLOSES for lack of business... No, no one in their right mind would consider retiring there (and I AM retired). Nearest medical care is a Veterinarian at the bottom of the drive. Anyone remember when there actually was a SS Doctor and the armed security? It was ironic...during a big snow, you couldn't drive there to GO skiing! LOL 55W won't ever be more then a typical WV mtn road. I've seen 219 closed due to conditions. P.S. - my 2nd home is now in Orlando...I AutoTrain back & forth once-a-month year'round.
Bonzski wrote:
eggraid wrote:
At Snowshoe specifically, it's not the financial issues preventing a terrain expansion, it's the salamander. Seriously, it's in an environmentally fragile area so they are not allowed to expand terrain because of the (Cheat Mountain?) Salamander's tenuous hold on life and reproduction.I dug a 24" dia x 36" deep hole near my house and came across 3 sallys.....hardly extinct!
Did you get a permit for that hole? ;-)
