Question to the locals (and part-timers in Tucker County) - why isn't the demise of an important tourism attraction - which generates precious jobs and tax revenue - getting more attention from local and state officals? A scan of the news shows virtually no coverage of the shutdown of one of Tucker County's main visitor attractions. I'm in DC so perhaps I m missing something? This is especially perplexing because of how important tourism is to Tucker County and the Potomac Highlands. According to a state commissioned study, Tucker County derives nearly 20% of its jobs from tourism, 4th highest in the state ( http://www.deanrunyan.com/doc_library/WVImp.pdf ). I used to live in Vermont and there would be intense scrutiny from the locals if a sizeable tourism related business just stopped operating. Appreciate any perspective, and please refrain from discussing the resort in question, that topic has been exhaustively covered elsewhere in this forum, thanks-
WV is a third world state. Don't believe me? Go visit some of the southern counties and you will probably never get over the images of that level of poverty and wonder how it can exist here in america. Even Tucker is a poor enough county where all kids K-8 get free breakfast/lunch at schools. The state legislature would hardly budge to help it's own employees and teachers when they had a work stoppage.but they certainly aren't going to raise the very low taxes on the oil and gas companies that are having their way with this state to generate needed revenue to help the state. Neighboring Preston county recently declared a state of emergency for their roads. Doubt they are gonna sink money into trying to help a private ski resort.
chaga wrote:
WV is a third world state. Don't believe me? Go visit some of the southern counties and you will probably never get over the images of that level of poverty and wonder how it can exist here in america.
Last year I was traveling to Snowshoe and my GPS took me through down a route I had never been, looking at maps now it was down around Birch River and in through some old mining towns. I was shocked. Half of the places people were living looked more like sheds. A lot of the homes it looked like you had to drive through the river to get over to where the homes were. There were no bridges, just ruts through the stream. I know poverty. I grew up in the middle of nowhere southern ohio. But this was even more exteme.
West Virginia is one of my favorite places on earth. I just wish there was something to lift the people out of poverty.
West Virginia is one of my favorite places on earth. I just wish there was something to lift the people out of poverty.
At least In Alaska, all residents get around $1000 a year payment from the oil companies.....
Very sad conditions. Fact is, that is what a lot of poverty looks like in the US.
RodneyBD wrote:
Question to the locals (and part-timers in Tucker County) - why isn't the demise of an important tourism attraction - which generates precious jobs and tax revenue - getting more attention from local and state officals? A scan of the news shows virtually no coverage of the shutdown of one of Tucker County's main visitor attractions. I'm in DC so perhaps I m missing something? This is especially perplexing because of how important tourism is to Tucker County and the Potomac Highlands. According to a state commissioned study, Tucker County derives nearly 20% of its jobs from tourism, 4th highest in the state ( http://www.deanrunyan.com/doc_library/WVImp.pdf ). I used to live in Vermont and there would be intense scrutiny from the locals if a sizeable tourism related business just stopped operating. Appreciate any perspective, and please refrain from discussing the resort in question, that topic has been exhaustively covered elsewhere in this forum, thanks-
Have you asked the Parsons Advocate why you see no local coverage by them of this situation so critical to local jobs, tourism, and tax revenue?
yellowsnow wrote:
Have you asked the Parsons Advocate why you see no local coverage by them of this situation so critical to local jobs, tourism, and tax revenue?
The advocate is a super local paper. Anyone who reads it, knows whats going on here already. Sheetz closing in Parsons, is the big local story now. https://www.wboy.com/news/tucker/sheetz-store-location-set-to-close-in-tucker-county/1423384844
I like Sheetz and all, but the reaction to the closing really indicates how starved the region is for jobs. "taking action against the closure" - what does that even mean?
If only there was some way to promote tourism in one of the most beautiful areas in the eastern US...
National forests, Dolly Sods Wilderness, two magnificent state parks and fall foliage that rivals New England. The towns of Thomas and Davis are hopping. There is plenty of tourism, three seasons per year. Winter used to be the high season now it is the other three.
wgo wrote:
If only there was some way to promote tourism in one of the most beautiful areas in the eastern US...
Indeed. How many folks in DC have any idea what is available less than 3hr from the beltway? Tucker County is the proverbial hidden gem, that many of us keep waiting (and waiting, and waiting) to be discovered by the masses. A bit more marketing by the TC chamber of commerce would go a long way to improving the situation!
Maybe it is too late for Timberline under current ownership, but given the year-round potential for Canaan Valley as a premier outdoor vacation destination for the DC area it's hard to believe that things won't eventually move in the right direction.
Oh the folks operating the state park ski area would like nothing better than to be open on the weekends of the MLK, Presday, and VA School holidays and close up March first. That place that starts with T and ends with lime does a way better job making snow than the state park. I have a friend who was the SSD at the state park years back who asked what are the chances that the two worst managed ski areas in america could be 5 miles apart? I really don't think the State cares about winter tourism.
jimmy wrote:
Oh the folks operating the state park ski area would like nothing better than to be open on the weekends of the MLK, Presday, and VA School holidays and close up March first. That place that starts with T and ends with lime does a way better job making snow than the state park. I have a friend who was the SSD at the state park years back who asked what are the chances that the two worst managed ski areas in america could be 5 miles apart? I really don't think the State cares about winter tourism.
There needs to be an official answer here to the above “challenge”. IF TL does not open this winter, then will CV Ski pull out all the stops and try to pick up the TL customers by improved aggressive snowmaking, and emphasizing an earlier opening and later closing (weather permitting)!
The Colonel
You would have to ask them. Unless they do something about the lack of water for snowmaking, which has been their main issue since DCSki was a baby. Doesn't matter what kind of snowmaking equipment they install, the faster they make snow, the faster they run out of water.
From what I hear there are quite a few locals and second homeowners in Canaan Valley area with Snowshoe passes this season. The Ikon pass was another way to a season pass at the Shoe.
The Colonel wrote:
jimmy wrote:
Oh the folks operating the state park ski area would like nothing better than to be open on the weekends of the MLK, Presday, and VA School holidays and close up March first. That place that starts with T and ends with lime does a way better job making snow than the state park. I have a friend who was the SSD at the state park years back who asked what are the chances that the two worst managed ski areas in america could be 5 miles apart? I really don't think the State cares about winter tourism.
There needs to be an official answer here to the above “challenge”. IF TL does not open this winter, then will CV Ski pull out all the stops and try to pick up the TL customers by improved aggressive snowmaking, and emphasizing an earlier opening and later closing (weather permitting)!
The Colonel
Isn't that backwards ? If you remvoe competition then you remove incentive to work ? Just sayin....
I have spent the last several years exploring all over Tucker County in amazement of this wondrous land. Also being from DC and understanding the basic concepts of tourism and convenience, I have spent those same years racking my brain about how badly Tucker County is run. There is SO much untapped potential there.
But as others have described above, it is still West VA. I cannot describe the number of locals i've met who basically view tourists as intruders rather than dollar signs. People who work for certain resorts out there have complained to me about a management mindset with an inability to even begin to understand advertising and the use of social media.
Honestly, that is part of the charm of the place. But it is also extremely frustrating. One thing I have learned is that it's probably not going to change. Just look at those old posts on DCSKI from the mid 2000's when they were predicting a Whole Foods would probably end up in Davis!
Timberline is extremely frustrating, but I almost feel like the local economy has already built its demise into the equation. Not to mention the past two somewhat disappointing ski seasons.
Here's hope Canaan Valley Resort can at least continue it's operation going forward. I'll be there, because no matter what it's still one of the cheapest options to get a family on the slopes without crowds!
Hmm, the current governor of WV is James Justice. Very rich man from a family that's owned coal mines and a variety of other businesses for a while. Thought the name sounded familiar. He owns Greenbrier. Bought Wintergreen in 2012 and then turned around and sold it relatively quickly. I would guess he understands golf as a recreational attraction, not snowsports.
I have the sense that WV State Parks are what gets emphasized when it comes to finding ways to bring in tourist dollars. Found a report from 2015 that says almost 50% of the revenue at the state parks came from out-of-state visitors. Have only stayed at Pipestem, which is near Winterplace. Also did a group gathering there during the summer. Nicely set up for a relatively inexpensive and uncrowded family-friendly vacation.
https://wvstateparks.com/EconomicResearch2015.pdf
When Justice owned the ski area at Wintergreen he invested heavily in the state-of-Art snowmaking system now in place!
wintergrern is an anomaly in the operation of a ski area. Ever notice there is no season pass available that covers all operating hours!! This is because the Homeowners do not want an overcrowded Sat ski day!!! Hard to make money when you keep the season pass holders away on Sat!!!
The Colonel
Jimmy, About the water issue at the CV ski area, any idea why the don’t drill a deep well to help keep the snow making ponds full?
The Colonel wrote:
When Justice owned the ski area at Wintergreen he invested heavily in the state-of-Art snowmaking system now in place!
wintergrern is an anomaly in the operation of a ski area. Ever notice there is no season pass available that covers all operating hours!! This is because the Homeowners do not want an overcrowded Sat ski day!!! Hard to make money when you keep the season pass holders away on Sat!!!
The Colonel
Hmm, forgot the timing for Wintergreen. Even so, the $12 million was spent on Wintergreen upgrades and improvements only means Justice knows what kind of money it takes to keep a ski area competitive. But that's completely different from the idea of supporting a private companies in the ski business as the Governor.
What has Governor Justice done to support WV State Parks in general?
fishnski wrote:
70 inches of liquid fall on those Mtn tops...build another pond or 2... Eminent Domain should be used at TL to help put some of those poor WV folks back to work but really with this Trump Economy and help wanted signs everywhere there shouldn't be anyone jobless out there..there should be a program to help these Americans move to where the jobs are..uno...set them up like half our country likes to do with as many illegals as they can get our money to help with....now...as the saying goes...you can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink....so..help needs to be offered to Our Americans in need...but they need to take advantage of it.... My fear is that if one side gets in power those help wanted signs everywhere will be filled with "cheap"...(not so much ) labor and hashtag..keepwageslowforever....
It's amazing how much political opinion you can squeeze into one post. You just can't resist.
marzNC wrote:
Hmm, forgot the timing for Wintergreen. Even so, the $12 million was spent on Wintergreen upgrades and improvements only means Justice knows what kind of money it takes to keep a ski area competitive. But that's completely different from the idea of supporting a private companies in the ski business as the Governor.
What has Governor Justice done to support WV State Parks in general?
Someone this time last year brought up logging them. Does that count?
Thankfully that didn't work out: http://wvmetronews.com/2018/02/23/bill-allowing-logging-in-state-parks-falls-apart/
Fishnski - my point is, wrong forum. I think Alex Jones has a forum somewhere. That said, WV is a very rural place that is not benefiting from Captain Chaos's economy. I'd imagine many folks are moving where the jobs are which makes the situation worse for the ones that remain. The grocery store then closes, etc.
I'm a new full timer in the valley after being a part timer for 25 years. I work or have worked for T-line and have done the state part for almost a year as both a ski instructor and at the golf course pro shop. I have a pretty good handle on what's what and can verify that there are problems here in paradise. it goes like this:
1. There is a lack of a workforce. That's probably due to the low wages paid here. I took a job for the summer for 15 to 20 hours for something to keep me busy and ended up working almost 40 hours/week at minimum wage. Why? State Park vendor, Regency, cutting costs and overhead by reducing personnel, especially management, and pushing part time hourly workers to close to a 40 hour week. They don't care about their golf course or ski area. It's a recreational draw for their main money maker, the hotel. They bagged their golf pro and head of HR this summer to make the books fatter so they could maintain their bid next year when it's up. Without additional water, they can't make more snow. Until they but in a lake somewhere, this issue won't improve.
2. Timberline have their own issues. They are an under capitalized business if there ever was one. Hence, the lack of workforce for important positions, adequate functioning infrastructure, and modern facilities. They also have other problems which they are struggling to overcome. I've been one of their biggest fans over the years but find it increasingly difficult, especially with the personalities involved. As a property owner of what once was over 650k in realestate, I'm disappointed that they and other business interests in the valley have let property values depreciate so much so quickly. I can 't take it with me, but I hate to see all of it flushed down the hopper.
3. Chamber of Commerce is trying. However they have a lack of support from a lot of businesses. A new non-profit I'm working with is joining it to help network but the network they have is only a small percentage of what it should be. We shall see what works out there.
4. The State is not actively involved in the area even with the two state parks. The biggest inhibitor to economic growth has been the intrusion of the "fish and wildlife" conservancy and their heavy restrictions to access of public lands. They own a large percentage of the valley and are no friend to bringing in tourism. Much of their land is posted and can only be accessed by foot if then.
5. Then there is the poverty. Tucker County has distinctly two seperate communities. There is the Canaan Valley area and parts of Davis and Thomas, and then there is the rest of the County which is typical Appalachia. The politics are reflected by this diversity.
I'm concerned because the valley is going to lose another restaurant at the end of October, leaving us with the Sirianni's cafe under Landis Realty, Big Johns, and the State Park which has limited hours and service isues. I guess for a night out I could go to BFS and Subway. Usually, the opposite is true about resort areas but this valley is just unusual. It probably comes down to the potential loss of a major ski area and the speculation asssociated to that.
The Colonel wrote:
When Justice owned the ski area at Wintergreen he invested heavily in the state-of-Art snowmaking system now in place!
wintergrern is an anomaly in the operation of a ski area. Ever notice there is no season pass available that covers all operating hours!! This is because the Homeowners do not want an overcrowded Sat ski day!!! Hard to make money when you keep the season pass holders away on Sat!!!
The Colonel
Also backwards in practice.. If the resort wants to keep the crowds down on Saturdays and Holidays, they'd allow ONLY passholders. They make way more revenue and profit from walk up ticket purchases than passes there and still would even without the insane pass blackouts. If they only allowed passholders it would make the place more like Yellowstone Club.
As for WV. another callout is the fact that the roads are trashed because of the fracking truck traffic more than anything else. But, asking them to pay their fair share of taxes to maintain those rodes is considered highway robbery LOL!
crgildart wrote:
As for WV. another callout is the fact that the roads are trashed because of the fracking truck traffic more than anything else. But, asking them to pay their fair share of taxes to maintain those rodes is considered highway robbery LOL!
If you look at the tax revenue each county will collect, they'll soon be paving with gold.
Bonzski wrote:
crgildart wrote:
As for WV. another callout is the fact that the roads are trashed because of the fracking truck traffic more than anything else. But, asking them to pay their fair share of taxes to maintain those rodes is considered highway robbery LOL!
If you look at the tax revenue each county will collect, they'll soon be paving with gold.
@Bonzski - can you elaborate a bit on that point? Is there increased tax revenue coming from local industry and/or the energy sector?
kwillg6 wrote:
I'm concerned because the valley is going to lose another restaurant at the end of October
What restaurant is being lost?
Deerfield Pub & Restaurant.
ChmxJoe74 wrote:
@Bonzski - can you elaborate a bit on that point? Is there increased tax revenue coming from local industry and/or the energy sector?
Taxes that will be paid by the new Atlantic Coast Pipeline.
ChmxJoe74 wrote:
Bonzski wrote:
crgildart wrote:
As for WV. another callout is the fact that the roads are trashed because of the fracking truck traffic more than anything else. But, asking them to pay their fair share of taxes to maintain those rodes is considered highway robbery LOL!
If you look at the tax revenue each county will collect, they'll soon be paving with gold.
@Bonzski - can you elaborate a bit on that point? Is there increased tax revenue coming from local industry and/or the energy sector?
Follow the link I inlcude....it details ESTIMATED taxes each county will collect from the ACP principals starting next year. Doesn't include the local industry impacts.
ChmxJoe74 wrote:
Bonzski wrote:
crgildart wrote:
As for WV. another callout is the fact that the roads are trashed because of the fracking truck traffic more than anything else. But, asking them to pay their fair share of taxes to maintain those rodes is considered highway robbery LOL!
If you look at the tax revenue each county will collect, they'll soon be paving with gold.
@Bonzski - can you elaborate a bit on that point? Is there increased tax revenue coming from local industry and/or the energy sector?
Keep in mind, in WV all county, state and interstate roads and some local roads, are owned and maintained by the State of WV, not the county. Increased property tax collections by the county doesn't necessarily equate to more road repairs. Its highly unlikely the Counties are going to hand over their tax revenue to the State. Local roads owned by municipalities might see some increased funding if the Counties decide to kick it their way. Most of the funding for highways comes from the State Road Fund (gasoline tax, DMV fees and some consumer sales tax), Federal moneys and a few other special sources, not property taxes. On that map, really only Harrison and Lewis see significant heavy drilling traffic anyway. Most of the real damage is west of I-79.
Bonzski wrote:
crgildart wrote:
As for WV. another callout is the fact that the roads are trashed because of the fracking truck traffic more than anything else. But, asking them to pay their fair share of taxes to maintain those rodes is considered highway robbery LOL!
If you look at the tax revenue each county will collect, they'll soon be paving with gold.
Not necessarily. Those are pipeline revenue taxes, not revenues earmarked for road and bridge construction. That plan is only to move the product. The truckloads of water in and waste out will still be wreaking havoc on local roads.
Is there law preventing pipeline tax revenues being used for roads? A portion of our property and business taxes goes toward local road maintenance. The CITY of Fairmont passed an employee tax law several years ago. Non-resident people who work within city limits have $2 per week taken from their paycheck....to help pay for maintenance of roads within city limits but not state routes. City residents pay through one of their utility bills (garbage?). If the county had access to pipeline revenues you bet they would apply some of that towards roads, much like the coal severance taxes.
It could be collected for roads, but will it actually go to roads? Under our last governor here in MD, roads were often the excuse for raising taxes, but much of the money never actually made it to road improvements. As an example, the main road outside my neighborhood (a state route) hasn't been repaved once the entire 11 years I've lived there. The state's solution is either continual patching, or just throwing a steel plate over the hole and calling it good.
I'd hope any road taxes they're sucking from the residents and workers would actually go to roads, but if things are dire, I can imagine roads are low priority.
Large crowds for the Leaf Peeping festival in Davis this weekend. Still few signs of life at Timberline. Potholes on the access road through the lots continue to grow. Grass was cut in front of the lodge up to the Queen but nowehere else.
Maybe I spoke too soon. Just saw a Tline employee heading up the mountain on an ATV.😀
johnfmh wrote:
Large crowds for the Leaf Peeping festival in Davis this weekend. Still few signs of life at Timberline. Potholes on the access road through the lots continue to grow. Grass was cut in front of the lodge up to the Queen but nowehere else.
Maybe I spoke too soon. Just saw a Tline employee heading up the mountain on an ATV.😀
Any sign of activity is positive in my mind
State of affairs in West Virginia bordering on ludicrous... meanwhile in jurisdictions that recognize the economic value of tourism: https://www.syracuse.com/state/index.ssf/2018/10/ny_state_to_invest_9m_in_catskills_ski_resort.html
RodneyBD wrote:
State of affairs in West Virginia bordering on ludicrous... meanwhile in jurisdictions that recognize the economic value of tourism: https://www.syracuse.com/state/index.ssf/2018/10/ny_state_to_invest_9m_in_catskills_ski_resort.html
One important distinction there is Belleayre was created by NY state and is operated by the state through ORDA. WV recognizes the value of tourism, check out CVR....a WV state park. Ludicrous has nothing to do with WV. Not sure what your point is?
I think you missed the point, this thread is about Tucker County. CVR is owned by the state, just like Belleayre. NY is pumping resources into Belleayre to benefit regional economic activity. West Virginia is not. I am aware they did renovate the hotel a few years ago... but the concessionaire isn't given the leeway or margin to blow snow and operate like a real ski resort. Apparently they wouldn't even pony up for the pro shop roof repair. See seperate thread about the bean counters in South Dakota.
So yeah, I would say a state owned facility that routinely operates under capacity next to a resort that is failing (and whose owner is under criminal investigation) while business's are closing in a valley that is dependant on tourism is ludicrous. Just my observation, we are reasonable people who can disagree.
Got it now. I thought your point was more about the proposing WV invest in the neighbor hill. Yes there has been alligator arms when it comes to fully supporting CVR, but so goes a place running off tax funds in a state with a low tax base unlike NY's deep pockets. And then there's the limited water. WV did invest in the lodge and other snowmaking improvements in recent years, so not like it's being left uncared for.
West Virginia built Corridor H which slashed easily an hour off the travel time it used to take me to get the last 200 miles of the trip to both Canan and T-Line. Pretty sure that infrastructure improvement was done with the idea that investment would benefit tourism in Tucker county.
Congress (1965) authorized the Appalachian Development Highway to connect Appalachia to the rest of the world with limited access four-lane highways. From Maine to Alabama, the roads were designed for only one purpose ”“ to open the entire region to more economic development opportunities. Tucker County tourism is only one small part of the intent and Tucker County is fortunate the northern Corridor H alignment is being built. CVR nor T4SR existed when the highways were envisioned. Now - will Virginia ever honor their commitment?? Not likely until the Federal Govt. forces the issue.
crgildart wrote:
West Virginia built Corridor H which slashed easily an hour off the travel time it used to take me to get the last 200 miles of the trip to both Canan and T-Line. Pretty sure that infrastructure improvement was done with the idea that investment would benefit tourism in Tucker county.
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